tabling of documents {sent} house of commons {sent} thursday , april 17 , 1986 {sent} the house met at 11 a.m. {sent} statements by ministers {sent} routine proceedings {sent} petitions {sent} government response {sent} canadian charter of rights and freedoms {sent} fourth anniversary of proclamation {sent} mr. speaker , our government has demonstrated its support for these important principles by taking steps to enforce the provisions of the charter more vigourously . {sent} we took the initiative in assessing and amending current legislation and policies to ensure that they reflect a broad interpretation of the charter . {sent} in doing so , we have tried to rise above the conventional political options and take a new and broader view . {sent} for example , last december new initiatives and increased funding was announced to improve the status of disabled persons . {sent} mr. speaker , i am proud of the role played by canadians in carrying out this difficult task , which consists in defining the mechanisms for bringing about equality and social justice in canada . {sent} we are committed to the continuation of this process of consultation because we believe canadians have the right to participate in the development of policy that fundamentally affects their lives . {sent} there is no doubt that the charter is affecting all of our lives . {sent} it requires courts and governments to be ever aware of the need to balance individual and societal rights in a fashion which facilitates society 's interest with the least amount of restriction upon individual rights . {sent} the charter is giving individuals a new opportunity to seek redress when their rights are infringed upon . {sent} it also imposes on all an obligation to be tolerant of the rights of others . {sent} i hope that all hon. members will continue to work towards achieving this collective goal . {sent} it is also the first anniversary of the charter being brought into force . {sent} we in canada can be proud , in a world as we see it today , of the fact that we are a torch held aloft for freedom . {sent} canada is a nation perceived throughout the world as a democracy , one that is tolerant , one that has signed the international human rights covenants and given leadership in all aspects of human rights . {sent} we have also shown we are prepared to carry out those rights within our own homeland . {sent} we do not , as some countries do , merely talk . {sent} our laws bring substance to the kind of society we wish to have , a society which respects people of all races , colours , religions , sex , and background . {sent} that is to our glory . {sent} we can be very proud and i want to join with all members of this house in proclaiming this happy occasion . {sent} we in the liberal party have some very special reasons to be proud of the role we have played over the years in this respect . {sent} certainly everyone in my caucus is concerned about human rights . {sent} we can look back at some of the major events , not to mention the many minor events , which have occurred in the past in an effort to uphold human rights and equality . {sent} for example , the bringing into effect of the canadian human rights commission , the court challenges program for official languages , and the charter of rights and freedoms itself . {sent} then , of course , there are the guidelines which have been in existence in treasury board and so on to try and make sure that people have equality in the public service . {sent} however , we have a ways to go . {sent} those in my caucus who are policy critics in various areas should really be given some opportunity to speak , but they cannot since only one person can respond . {sent} however , it is not enough to merely have guidelines and to speak in generalities . {sent} we must also have teeth in our law . {sent} we must have legislation and charters which will allow people to come before the courts with their concerns and grievances with some effect and justice . {sent} on this occasion i call upon the government to try to change its bill so that it will recognize the urgent need to bring justice and freedom to our people . {sent} certainly all of us in this house are very proud of the proclamation of the charter of rights . {sent} i know the history of my colleagues in the ndp , and our predecessors in the ccf , who fought long , hard and valiantly to ensure entrenched protection of human rights in canada 's constitution . {sent} one year ago today we proclaimed the final section of the charter of rights , section 15 . {sent} one year later we must examine with care the record of the government . {sent} we celebrate today the accomplishments of those canadians who fought so hard for a strong , entrenched charter of rights . {sent} the ad hoc women 's committee who , in a tremendous display of energy and dedication from right across this land , came together and insisted on the inclusion of section 28 of the charter of rights and freedoms . {sent} i would note in that regard the concern expressed by groups representing the handicapped , in particular the coalition of provincial organizations of the handicapped , with respect to the government 's response on human rights and fundamental freedoms . {sent} they suggest that if they were to give a grade to the government 's response , it would be a d minus . {sent} in that regard i note with regret that the government has still not accepted the recommendations of the canadian council on social development which over a month ago submitted recommendations for a panel for the court challenges program . {sent} i take this opportunity to call upon the secretary of state to approve that panel and let the ccsd get on with the business of funding these important court challenges . {sent} -- the canadian human rights commission on reasonable accommodation to reverse the effect of the binder decision in the supreme court of canada . {sent} equality must be a reality . {sent} interparliamentary delegations {sent} presentation of report of delegation to yugoslavia {sent} petitions {sent} petitions {sent} canada -- u.s. agreement on test range , nanoose bay {sent} they want to bring to an end all weapons testing in the test range and convert the test range to peaceful purposes . {sent} smoking control act {sent} measure to enact {sent} mr. patrick boyer ( etobicoke -- lakeshore ) moved for leave to introduce bill c-287 , an act to control smoking in public buildings and facilities . {sent} mr. speaker : shall the hon. member have leave to introduce the bill ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} in summary , i believe this bill blends a reasonable accommodation of the needs of all parties concerned in a realistic and practical way to deal with this health hazard . {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} the hon. member knows that summaries of private member 's bills are intended to be as brief as possible . {sent} motion agreed to , bill read the first time and ordered to be printed . {sent} order paper questions {sent} questions on the order paper {sent} ( questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk . ) {sent} mr. doug lewis ( parliamentary secretary to president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , the following question will be answered today : no. 536 . {sent} persons deported from canada {sent} question no. 536 -- mr. redway : {sent} hon. walter mclean ( minister of state ( immigration ) ) : ( a ) 3,747 , ( b ) 3,112 , ( c ) 2,265 , ( d ) 306 ( year to date ) . {sent} ( i ) ( a ) $ 1,890,749 , ( b ) $ 1,690,450 , ( c ) $ 1,220,661 , ( d ) $ 522,158 . {sent} ( ii ) ( a ) $ 3,333,581 , ( b ) $ 3,651,766 , ( c ) $ 3,434,708 , ( d ) $ 1,795,729 . {sent} enforcement data system {sent} employment & immigration information system {sent} mr. lewis : i ask , mr. speaker , that the remaining questions be allowed to stand . {sent} mr. speaker : the question enumerated by the hon. parliamentary secretary has been answered . {sent} shall the remaining questions stand ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} those are clear instructions . {sent} but what if the employer does not do those things ? {sent} there is no follow up action whatsoever . {sent} it seems to me from all of the evidence after one year of implementation of the equality section of the charter , we have not made much progress . {sent} judge abella gave a speech at the canadian club the other day and pointed out that we have not made much progress with respect to equality for women in the workplace . {sent} the government brings forward bill c-62 and places certain responsibilities upon employers with respect to equity in the workplace , yet the teeth are missing from the bill . {sent} i recall saying about a different bill that the bill was nothing but a " roaring rabbit " . {sent} it is the same with this bill . {sent} the message which clearly goes to employers is : " we have only put this in here for show . {sent} it is only window dressing " . {sent} there was a demostration of disabled persons on the hill a few days ago . {sent} they clearly pointed out that they are not hoodwinked by the bill . {sent} i believe one of their comments was : " we are not stupid . {sent} we know this bill is not going to help resolve the problem " . {sent} we cannot masquerade this shell of a bill as a bill which is taking a step towards providing some equality in the workplace . {sent} that is why my colleague put forward his amendment . {sent} the only penalty in the bill is in clause 6 . {sent} clause 6 states : {sent} on or before june 1 , 1988 and on or before june 1 of each year thereafter , every employer shall file with the minister a report in respect of the immediately preceding calendar year -- {sent} that is with respect to how many employees and so on . {sent} the penalty for not filing that report is $ 500,000 . {sent} it seems to me that that is not where we have to put the penalty . {sent} the penalty ought to be where employers are required to do certain things to actually bring about equality in the workplace . {sent} very conveniently , the government excludes the federal civil service from the provisions of the bill . {sent} so the government itself is not even prepared to accept the bill as applying to itself as an employer . {sent} we would urge the government to accept the subamendment of my colleague , the hon. member for ottawa centre . {sent} i believe it would show the good faith of the government . {sent} it would show that it really wants to do something about equality in the workplace . {sent} it would certainly send a message to the employers that the government is serious about creating equity in the workplace . {sent} i would not mind if the government wanted to take the $ 500,000 penalty out of clause 6 . {sent} i would not personally be opposed to that . {sent} what is the big fuss about not filing a report ? {sent} members of the government have said that we should not burden business with a lot of form-filling . {sent} here they are putting in clause 6 which requires a lot of form-filling . {sent} that information can be found out . {sent} after all , the employer has to file an income tax return . {sent} it seems to me that this is not where we ought to place the emphasis . {sent} clauses 4 and 5 are the clauses which require employers to do specific things with respect to equity . {sent} those are the particular clauses which need the teeth and not clause 6 . {sent} mr. alan redway ( york east ) : mr. speaker , i have listened with interest to the hon. member 's comments with respect to enforcement provisions in the bill . {sent} this bill was introduced in the house for first reading in june of 1985 . {sent} that is almost one year ago . {sent} there was debate on the bill at that time . {sent} there was debate on the bill at second reading stage . {sent} there was debate on the bill in committee . {sent} here we are now back with it in the house of commons . {sent} so it has had a great deal of debate . {sent} i know that the hon. member has been a party to that debate . {sent} i know that he realizes in his heart of hearts that there is an enforcement mechanism in the bill . {sent} in fact , in part of his remarks he referred to the fact that there is such a mechanism . {sent} quite clearly , as hon. members are aware , the bill provides that there must first be a plan . {sent} mr. rodriguez : where is the enforcement ? {sent} mr. redway : it provides that there must be a plan . {sent} of course , that is set out in clause 5 . {sent} as the hon. member is also aware , the bill provides that the minister set out the requirements of the plan , which is set out in clause 12 . {sent} under the provisions of that clause a minister can issue regulations as to the guidelines for the plan . {sent} mr. rodriguez : what if they don't ? {sent} mr. redway : the hon. member knows quite well that under clause 6 of the bill there are provisions for the plan and the report . {sent} the subject matter of the plan has to be filed with the minister and filed in the house . {sent} first , there is a clause for requiring compliance with the plan , as the hon. member well knows . {sent} by passing this bill and by requiring that the plan be filed , then the evidence will be available in order to provide the human rights commission and -- {sent} mr. rodriguez : i rise on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} with all due respect , i know that the hon. member for york east ( mr. redway ) would not want to leave on the record information which could be misleading and which is misleading . {sent} in fact , there is no penalty for not filing the plan . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret to interrupt the hon. member . {sent} that is not a point of order , it is a point of debate . {sent} the hon. member for york east ( mr. redway ) has the floor . {sent} mr. redway : mr. speaker , just to respond to the hon. member 's non-point of order , if i may . {sent} clause 6 of the bill requires the filing of the report and clause 7 imposes a penalty for not filing it . {sent} to go on , once the report is filed the information is then available , information which has been lacking in the past , for the human rights commission to go ahead and deal with the matter . {sent} quite clearly , the hon. member , and all hon. members in the opposition , know this . {sent} they know it in their heart of hearts . {sent} if they were coming clean with the house , as they always tell members of the government to do , then they would be telling us that this is a great bill . {sent} it is the first time that federal legislation of this sort has come forward . {sent} perhaps hon. members want to go one step further . {sent} in fact , it was not designated as a target group until our government came to office in 1985 . {sent} ms. copps : i rise on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} we love to hear the hon. member for york east ( mr. redway ) speak . {sent} but , for heaven 's sake , when he speaks he should speak the truth . {sent} that is an absolute falsehood and he knows it . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : that is debate . {sent} it is not a point of order . {sent} if the hon. member wishes to participate in debate she will have an opportunity . {sent} the hon. member for york east . {sent} mr. redway : i certainly hope the hon. member will repeat that outside the house , mr. speaker . {sent} ms. copps : with pleasure . {sent} sue me and i will see you in court . {sent} mr. redway : i will be looking forward to it in the same way i looked forward to her tabling some documents in another debate which she said she would table and never did . {sent} just to conclude -- {sent} ms. copps : i rise on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} if the hon. member understood the rules of the house he would recognize that ordinary members do not have the right to table documents . {sent} i am surprised that we do not have compassion in the house . {sent} the hon. member for york east has the floor . {sent} if the hon. member for hamilton east ( ms. copps ) wishes to participate in the debate then she will have that opportunity . {sent} mr. waddell : we have now had the benediction , let 's have the speech ! {sent} mr. redway : as i have indicated , there is an enforcement mechanism in the legislation . {sent} it is the intention to ensure that there is employment equity for those four target groups . {sent} however , it is not the intention of the government to try to enforce this provision by putting people in jail . {sent} it is the intention of the government to bring that enforcement about in an orderly and logical fashion . {sent} that is what this legislation is geared at . {sent} there are many examples in the united states of legislation of this sort . {sent} time and time again it has been proved that that does not work . {sent} in fact , i was present at a debate in a committee of the house of representatives in washington last fall when members of the committee were debating that very issue . {sent} at that time , the administration had been called on the carpet because the system which it had put in place did not work . {sent} the system being put in place by this bill will work . {sent} if it does not work there will be other steps and other measures to come in the future . {sent} the system which has been put in place by this bill is the first step . {sent} it is the first step which has been taken by any canadian government . {sent} it will be an effective first step . {sent} employers are already hurrying to ensure that they are in line by the time this piece of legislation passes into law . {sent} at the same time , i think it is incumbent upon the government to ensure that its measures with the public service are hand-in-hand . {sent} i am sure the government will be doing just that . {sent} with that , i would urge the house to pass this legislation as quickly as possible , bearing in mind that it was introduced in the house almost one year ago . {sent} it is about time we put it into law . {sent} it may be that the rules do not provide for the tabling of documents by private members but , nonetheless , when a private member says he is going to do it one would think he would do it . {sent} i might say that he has blatantly misled the house and the canadian people on several points . {sent} mr. redway : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} i think that is an unparliamentary remark and should be withdrawn . {sent} mr. orlikow : mr. speaker , i rise on the same point of order . {sent} it may be that the use of the word " blatant " is -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : just a moment . {sent} does the hon. member for winnipeg north ( mr. orlikow ) have something to contribute to this ? {sent} mr. orlikow : a point of order , yes . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : before i entertain a point of order , could i see the table officers ? {sent} i did hear some awfully strong language coming from the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) . {sent} i do not think he really meant what he said . {sent} i would hope that he would withdraw at least that portion of the statement and carry on with debate . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i do not know what part of my remarks you disapprove of , but if it is the word " blatant " i will withdraw that word . {sent} however , it is my strong conviction that the hon. member has misled the house in the remarks he just made . {sent} i think that is parliamentary . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i will go along with that , but i feel that that is still very strong language according to statements that should be made in the house . {sent} i would hope that we could carry on with fellowship and compassion . {sent} does the hon. member have another point of order ? {sent} mr. redway : mr. speaker , he repeated again a statement which i believe is unparliamentary and should be withdrawn . {sent} if it is your ruling , mr. speaker , that it was not -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i will hear the hon. member . {sent} mr. redway : mr. speaker , it is my submission that the phrase used by the hon. member that the house was misled by me is an unparliamentary statement and should be -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : would the hon. member mind resuming his seat ? {sent} the hon. member withdrew the word " blatant " . {sent} that is why i asked the hon. member to withdraw . {sent} he has done so and , therefore , i think he should carry on with debate . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i want to substantiate some of the things i just said and describe how the public and the house could be misled by those remarks . {sent} as i said earlier , clause 2 of the bill indicates that the purpose of this bill is to achieve equality in the workplace . {sent} that is fine . {sent} that is great rhetoric of which we all approve . {sent} clause 4 of the bill says that an employer shall implement employment equity by identifying and eliminating barriers to employment for certain groups . {sent} that is fine too . {sent} it also says that an employer shall implement employment equity by instituting positive policies and practices to achieve a greater degree of representation for the target groups . {sent} the bill requires employers to do certain things but nowhere in the bill is there a penalty attached if employers do not do those things . {sent} clause 6 simply requires the employer to file information regarding the composition of his workforce . {sent} as i pointed out the other day , he could keep on reporting year after year that the composition of his workforce has remained the same . {sent} he could have employed one woman in year one , one woman in year two and one woman in year three and he would not be subject to any penalty . {sent} the subamendment to my amendment put forward by the ndp applies a penalty to clauses 4 , 5 and 6 of the bill . {sent} the clause would then read that an employer who fails to comply with sections 4 , 5 and 6 is guilty of an offence . {sent} if he can demonstrate to me that there is a penalty in this bill for not living up to the obligations under clauses 4 and 5 , i will eat this bill on the floor of the house of commons . {sent} i am convinced that he cannot show me that . {sent} not only that , not one of the target groups that appeared before the legislative committee saw that there was any penalty attached to those cluases in the bill . {sent} not one of them would agree with him . {sent} if he had attended the demonstration the other day and said what he said here in the house , he would have been tarred and feathered by those disabled people despite their disabilities . {sent} in addition , the hon. member has not even read the amendments we put forward . {sent} no one is suggesting that employers be put into prison , as he was mentioning a few moments ago , for not living up to the obligations under this bill . {sent} my further amendment which is now under discussion suggests that the fine should be increased from $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 but no one has put forward an amendment suggesting that we imprison employers if they do not live up to the obligations . {sent} that is a red herring that the hon. member has thrown on the floor before us . {sent} mr. de corneille : smells like a tuna . {sent} mr. allmand : the hon. member also said that this is the first time a government has put a bill before parliament to deal with discrimination against visible minorities . {sent} these people who were elected in 1984 do not know what happened before 1984 . {sent} for him to suggest that this is the first time any bill has been put before the house dealing with discrimination on the basis of racial minorities is completely false . {sent} the hon. member is not even familiar with the canadian human rights act which was passed by the house in 1977 and also deals with discrimination against visible minorities . {sent} let us not hear conservative blarney about this being the first time anyone has done anything about discrimination based on race , religion , ethnic origin and the like . {sent} they are not familiar with what took place . {sent} they are reading the press releases put out by the minister , but they are not telling the truth , and everyone knows it . {sent} mr. david orlikow ( winnipeg north ) : mr. speaker , i am sorry the hon. member for york east ( mr. redway ) has left the chamber . {sent} even though he is not here , i should like to say that i do not remember when i have heard so many misstatements of fact and so much ignorance displayed in a 10-minute speech as i heard in his speech . {sent} every group representing these people has registered very strong objections to the bill and has said that it will not do the job . {sent} what does the bill indicate ? {sent} in clause 4 it indicates that an employer shall , in consultation with such persons as have been designated by the employees , implement plans . {sent} if there is no union , i do not know with whom the employees would consult , but i will ignore that point for the moment . {sent} clause 5 indicates that an employer shall prepare a plan , and clause 6 indicates that the employer shall file with the minister a report in respect to what is being done . {sent} it has already been pointed out that there is no penalty if an employer does not file a plan . {sent} however , i have a much more serious objection . {sent} what about employers who file plans which do not do what the bill wants them to do ? {sent} there is no penalty for that . {sent} an employer could file a plan every year in which he or she essentially says that nothing will be done , and there is no penalty for that . {sent} let me deal for a moment with the alleged analysis of the hon. member for york east about what happened in the united states . {sent} i do this because i spent about a dozen years working with the canadian labour congress and other community organizations on the entire question of human rights . {sent} the hon. member is wrong . {sent} he either does not know the facts , or he does not want us to know the facts . {sent} i do not want to be called to order because i am using unparliamentary language , so i will try to be careful in what i say . {sent} he is just wrong . {sent} people in the united states have not been put in jail , but the american law requires employers to perform . {sent} the american law calls upon employers to have objectives , not just theoretical objectives . {sent} it calls upon them to have numerical goals and to report on how they meet them . {sent} i know the hon. member for york east and the government do not like that , and i know canadian employers have expressed opposition to it . {sent} it has worked in the united states and the national association of manufacturers has said that it likes it . {sent} there is an ongoing debate in the united states which now has the most pro-business administration it has had in over 50 years . {sent} because of their ideological approach to things , some of president reagan 's advisors want to get rid of the numerical goals . {sent} canadians know secretary of labour bill brock because he was trade negotiator for a while . {sent} he is urging the president and the administration to keep the numerical goals . {sent} the association went on to indicate : " tell us what you want us to do and we will do it . {sent} then no one will be able to criticize us for not doing what the law says and no one will be able to take us to court " . {sent} i have a question for the hon. member for york east , for the minister and for the conservative government which says that it wants to speak for all canadians . {sent} why will they not accept the arguments of the organizations representing the very people the bill is supposed to help ? {sent} they do not have to accept the arguments of hon. members of the opposition parties ; we only make our cases for blatant political and partisan reasons ! {sent} i say to the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) that i have not been enthused or impressed by the efforts of the former government . {sent} in conclusion , if one looks at american television programming , sometimes one sees a post office in new york , chicago or los angeles . {sent} one cannot help but be struck by the large number of non-white people who are working in the post office . {sent} i just use that as an example . {sent} i venture to say that if one looked at a canadian post office in vancouver , toronto or winnipeg , one would see very few non-white people working there . {sent} our record in providing employment for members of minority groups is not a good one . {sent} we have a long way to go and a lot for which we should be apologetic . {sent} mr. gerry weiner ( parliamentary secretary to minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , all hon. members of the house share a common goal , employment equity . {sent} however , there are some philosophical differences and techniques . {sent} some very useful discussion has taken place over the last eight or nine months , but that is what it is all about . {sent} that is what the democratic process is all about . {sent} that is what the house of commons is for . {sent} we cannot agree on exactly how it will be put into effect , but we all want the same results . {sent} with concern being shown and with heart being put into the debate , we know that all canadians will be well protected by the supervision , surveillance and guidance of all members of the house of commons . {sent} in this particular motion we are being asked for prescribed goals and timetables . {sent} we had a feeling that that would mean more quotas , a new enforcement agency and more regulatory bodies . {sent} those are the things we wanted to avoid . {sent} i should like to clarify the following because it may need some clarification . {sent} mr. fairweather stated that reports submitted under section 5 would give enough evidence of systemic discrimination . {sent} it is exactly what the commission wanted , and how it will deal with data was included in its testimony . {sent} if results are bad , the canadian human rights commission can conduct an investigation , including access to the action plans . {sent} if the investigation of the canadian human rights commission leads to evidence of systemic discrimination , the chrc can impose penalties under section 41 of the canadian human rights act . {sent} the bill is mandatory in two ways -- failure to report and the action of the canadian human rights commission . {sent} motion no. 32a would have the fine increased from $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 . {sent} we feel that $ 50,000 is realistic . {sent} it is in accordance with other legislation , such as the canadian human rights act . {sent} for these reasons i am opposed to the two motions now being discussed . {sent} mrs. lucie pépin ( outremont ) : mr. speaker , i rise in support of the amendment . {sent} i heard my colleague say earlier that we all had the same objective in discussing this bill because we supposedly all want to achieve equality . {sent} he added that all canadians would be much happier with a bill such as this one if it were to receive passage without any changes . {sent} as for me , i would be rather surprised if satisfactory results could be achieved before certain changes are made and certain penalties are included . {sent} they all referred to the lack of seriousness and will shown by the government because no penalty was provided and the bill had no teeth . {sent} we have the impression that this bill will be another smokescreen as often happens with the bills aimed at women which this government introduces . {sent} if we compare the abella report with this bill , we have the impression that the measure as it now stands is a travesty of the report . {sent} we all know that , without penalties , it is impossible to have an acceptable piece of legislation . {sent} all that is being asked of the employers is to submit a report in two years , in 1988 , and we cannot even know their action plan . {sent} the human rights chief commissioner came twice before the committee to make a submission and to say how important it was to include penalties in this bill . {sent} my conservative colleagues might want to brag that this government is doing something for women , but i would like them to be much more serious about it than they are now . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} motion no. 31a {sent} " 7 . {sent} an employer who fails to comply is guilty of an offense and liable on " . {sent} the first question is on the amendment . {sent} mr. cassidy , moved : {sent} that motion no. 31a be amended as follows by deleting the following words : {sent} " is guilty of an offence and liable on " and substituting the following therefore : {sent} " with sections 4 , 5 and 6 is guilty of an offence and liable on " . {sent} the question is on the amendment . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the amendment . {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour of the amendment please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed subamendment stands deferred . {sent} at the same time i must put motion 32a . {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} i believe the amendment to motions nos. 31a and 32a have been debated but not the motions themselves . {sent} the amendment to those motions has not been completed . {sent} i would like to speak to this motion . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i must say to the hon. member for eglinton -- lawrence ( mr. de corneille ) that all three items were before the house when this debate was carried on . {sent} the grouping was motions nos. 31a and 32a and the amendment . {sent} i do not think i can allow the hon. member to speak with regard to the main amendment . {sent} the member should have known what was taking place . {sent} i have to put the question on the main amendment . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} as you know , in the first place i moved motions nos. 31a and 32a together because that is how they were grouped by the speaker . {sent} we started the debate on that . {sent} then the new democratic party moved an amendment to my motion no. 31a . {sent} at that point members were addressing the subamendment to my amendment . {sent} that subamendment has just been disposed of . {sent} now we should be returning to the original debate on motions nos. 31a and 32a which were grouped for debate by the speaker . {sent} the speaker did not predict that there would be a subamendment to those two original motions . {sent} one could not address the original two motions while addressing the subamendment . {sent} we had to dispose of the subamendment first before we addressed the principles embodied in the original amendment . {sent} mr. gauthier : there is one question before the house . {sent} in that situation i think members who did not have an opportunity to speak on motion no. 31a and motion 32a should have an opportunity to do so . {sent} motions nos. 31a and 32a were grouped along with the amendment . {sent} the vote was to take place . {sent} it is my understanding that there has been consultation with the table . {sent} the speaker has ruled on this previously . {sent} with the unanimous consent of the house , i will allow the hon. member for eglinton -- lawrence to speak for 10 minutes on motion no. 32a . {sent} i will recognize the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) on a point of order . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i was waiting for my turn to speak to the motion moved by the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grace -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) . {sent} i did not speak on the subamendment . {sent} i do not want to disagree with the speaker , but perhaps he would like to hold that in abeyance and think about it . {sent} the speaker 's ruling grouped motions nos. 31a and 32a , but did not include the amendment , because it was moved after the decision of the speaker . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i appreciate what the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier is saying , and that is why i am inclined to allow the member for eglinton -- lawrence to speak . {sent} does the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier wish to speak on motion no. 32a . {sent} mr. gauthier : yes. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i will allow it . {sent} i will now recognize the hon. member for eglinton -- lawrence . {sent} mr. roland de corneille ( eglinton -- lawrence ) : mr. speaker , i appreciate your decision on this matter . {sent} in his motion the member suggests that the penalty should be increased from $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 . {sent} martin luther king said that legislation , the law is a teacher . {sent} in other words , as well as punishing people , it teaches . {sent} we in this house must not think that companies should escape with impunity when they violate human rights . {sent} many companies in the country would like to comply with human rights because they know it is good business to take advantage of the skills and abilities of the entire labour force . {sent} it is good business to have people of all sexes , colours , and creeds portrayed in advertising . {sent} enlightened people know that that is good business . {sent} however , some people are not enlightened . {sent} they hoped for this because other companies were not complying and were able to escape with impunity for noncompliance with those rules . {sent} the enlightened people in the country thought it was good to have legislation which imposed penalties , and also that it was a teacher . {sent} we should think not only of human rights , but also of human responsibilities . {sent} through this legislation we are trying to make the employer responsible . {sent} it is important that this bill makes employers understand their responsibility and that society will not tolerate such a lack of responsibility . {sent} companies must conform to human rights . {sent} ultimately , it is wrong from every point of view . {sent} therefore , we must not allow companies and organizations to defy the values for which the people of this country stand . {sent} today is the fourth anniversary of the signing and bringing into effect of the charter of rights and freedoms . {sent} the secretay of state ( mr. bouchard ) is throwing a beautiful party for a thousand people to celebrate this occasion . {sent} it is hypocritical and cynical that on this very day we are debating in the house of commons a bill which has absolutely no teeth . {sent} it is silly to pretend that this bill has any compliance requirements or penalties at all . {sent} the rest of the bill asks people to do certain things , but there is no punishment or censure for noncompliance . {sent} in fact , in its present form , this bill invites them to be hypocritical and to be part of a system which only pays lip-service . {sent} if the abella commission had reported otherwise , mr. speaker , i would have no leg to stand on . {sent} if the affected groups were not outraged and disappointed , i would have no leg to stand on . {sent} however , despite the objections of all the groups which are supposed to be protected by this legislation , the government ignores their advice and presses forward with an inadequate bill . {sent} let this not be a paper tiger . {sent} let it not be said that something was done for the minorities . {sent} we do not want people to think that politicians talk through their hats , pretending to mean something when they do not . {sent} we do not want people to be further disillusioned with politics in a democratic system . {sent} let their voices be heard . {sent} certainly it is placing , once again , further pressure on faith in the democratic processes , the political system , and on the nature of politicians and their ability to deliver on their promises . {sent} all these things are at stake . {sent} finally , and above all , what is at stake is justice for those people who have waited long enough . {sent} those people are looking for justice now . {sent} it is not fair for them to have to wait with eternal optimism , as does the member of parliament on the other side . {sent} that is not good enough . {sent} we need it now and we need something that will give them assurance that their needs will be respected , and that they are going to be looked after now , at long last . {sent} this is the day we celebrate the charter being in effect for a year . {sent} it was passed four years ago . {sent} notwithstanding subsection ( 1 ) , section 15 -- {sent} this is from the canadian charter of rights and freedoms . {sent} -- shall not have effect until three years after this section comes into force . {sent} this is not unheard of . {sent} god knows some employers are not overly concerned about employment safety . {sent} the same thing applies to the handicapped . {sent} yes , 400 ! {sent} in ottawa-carleton this has been , their practice for five or six , or maybe it was three years . {sent} these are people who would not have had a job if there had not been an employer who was able to meet their specific needs . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the question is on motion no. 31a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 31a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 7 by striking out lines 13 and 14 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 7 . {sent} an employer who fails to comply is guilty of an offence and liable on " . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} the question is on motion no. 32a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 32a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 7 by striking out line 16 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " five hundred thousand dollars . " {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motions ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} hon. members will know that motions nos. 34 and 35 have been grouped for debate and will be voted on separately . {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain , for mr. nystrom ) moves : {sent} motion no. 34 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 9 by striking out line 23 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " year under section 6 and a consolidation of action plans received in that year under section 5 , and shall , as soon as " . {sent} motion no. 35 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 10 by striking out lines 29 and 30 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 10 . {sent} each action plan as required under section 5 and each report filed with the minister as required under section 6 , shall be available for public " . {sent} mr. howard mccurdy ( windsor -- walkerville ) : mr. speaker , it is necessary to speak only briefly on the need for these two amendments . {sent} as presently written , the bill would provide only that there be consultation and analysis of the snapshot of the character of the workforce . {sent} what is intended here is that the action plan would be included in the consolidated report and we would be provided with an analysis which would be tabled by the minister , as well as the snapshot . {sent} it is a reasonable amendment and would provide for a report not only on the snapshot but on the employer 's efforts at change . {sent} that is an obvious need and these are amendments which should certainly be concurred in by the government . {sent} we think this amendment is a good one . {sent} mr. gerry weiner ( parliamentary secretary to minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , we disagree . {sent} employers action plans are not included in the reporting requirements of the bill . {sent} therefore this motion cannot be enforced . {sent} the same rationale applies to motion no. 35 , so we would be opposed to both . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the question is on motion no. 34 , in the name of mr. nystrom . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} the next question is on motion no. 35 , in the name of mr. nystrom . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} the next motion for debate is no. 37a . {sent} hon. warren allmand ( notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ) moves : {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 13 by striking out line 19 at page 5 in the french version and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " parlement un rapport concernant l'examen et exposant tous les chan- " . {sent} he said : mr. speaker , the purpose of this amendment is simply to correct the french version which does not say everything the english version says . {sent} in english it says they shall submit a report on the review to parliament including a statement of any changes the committee would recommend . {sent} however , in french it leaves part of that out by simply saying : {sent} -- présente au parlement un rapport exposant tous les changements qu'il peut désirer recommander . {sent} my amendment would -- {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. gerry weiner ( parliamentary secretary to minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , we agree . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. dick : great speech . {sent} mr. weiner : this merely makes the french and english versions identical , as the hon. member indicated , so we should all vote for this . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the question is on motion no. 37a in the name of mr. allmand . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} motion no. 37a ( mr. allmand ) agreed to . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the next motion for debate is motion no. 39 . {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain , for mr. nystrom ) moves : {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended by deleting the short title and substituting the following therefor : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} the next question is on motion no. 39a . {sent} hon. warren allmand ( notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ) moves : {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended by deleting the short title and substituting the following therefor : {sent} he said : mr. speaker , the purpose of this amendment is to change the name of this bill to make it an honest bill . {sent} if the bill is not really going to enforce employment equity but simply require reporting , then let us call it what it is . {sent} that is the purpose of this amendment and the previous one . {sent} they are to make the bill an honest bill and not mislead the public . {sent} i want to endorse the comments of my friend , the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) because i do not believe this bill has any mandatory enforcement provisions . {sent} it has absolutely no provision for penalties for companies who do not comply . {sent} as far as i am concerned even the targets are secret to the companies . {sent} i would hope that the house would see fit to change the name of the bill to reflect what it really is . {sent} it is not a bill which achieves , or even aims at achieving employment equity . {sent} i am sure the hon. parliamentary secretary will show good sense with respect to this amendment regarding the title of the bill . {sent} mr. weiner : no , mr. speaker , the act is appropriately named . {sent} mr. fennell : the liberals never brought in anything . {sent} ms. copps : the hon. members says the liberals never brought in anything . {sent} the hon. member obviously does not know that the word " employment equity " was as a result of the abella report which commission was set up by the liberal government . {sent} it was the first party to introduce in 1977 equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} the hon. member should get to know his facts . {sent} the handicapped chanted quite clearly at the time , and it is the truth : " mulroney , baloney , your equity bill is phoney " . {sent} that is exactly what they mean . {sent} i think it is a crying shame that on equality day we are talking about a bill which is absolute nonsense . {sent} mr. roland de corneille ( eglinton -- lawrence ) : mr. speaker , obviously we are coming down to the close of debate on motions . {sent} this is the last motion and , appropriately , it is last because the question is about the title of the bill . {sent} there are many native people and minority groups all waiting for legislation which would give them strengthened support , to at last have equality . {sent} unfortunately we have received no support from the government for any of these motions . {sent} therefore , obviously , this remains a reporting bill , not a bill which achieves anything other than verbiage . {sent} i regret , therefore , that we must support a motion which asks for change of the name of this legislation to the " employment equity reporting act " because it is nothing more than reporting . {sent} it is not an act which brings about equity . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the question is on motion no. 39 . {sent} mr. deans : i rise on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : thank you . {sent} the question is on motion no. 39a standing in the name of the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} the house will now proceed with the recorded divisions deferred at the report stage of bill c-62 , an act respecting employment equity . {sent} call in the members . {sent} and the division bells having rung : {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the first question is on motion no. 1 . {sent} mr. nystrom moves : {sent} motion no. 1 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 2 by striking out line 6 at page 1 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 2 . {sent} the purpose of this act is to promote and encourage " . {sent} the house divided on the motion ( mr. nystrom ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} i take it there is an agreement . {sent} mr. deans : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} there are two brief matters which i want to raise . {sent} it is my understanding that we might agree to have the vote we have just taken count for all the outstanding votes . {sent} however , it has been brought to my attention that on motion no. 31a the yeas and nays were not taken . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} i take it , on motions nos. 8 , 11a , 12a , 14a , 16a , 19b , 21a , 24 , 25a , 26a and 27a , that the vote shall count as just recorded . {sent} mr. gray ( windsor west ) : mr. speaker , i was unable to be present for the vote just taken . {sent} since i have now entered the house , i presume my vote will be counted with the others of the official opposition on the motions your honour just read out . {sent} mr. speaker : yes. {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i think you failed to mention motions nos. 39 and 39a . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} i am trying to do it in some order . {sent} on the motions so far called there is an understanding , with the addition of the hon. member for windsor west . {sent} mr. gagnon : would you recognize my vote , please , mr. speaker ? {sent} the next vote will be on motion no. 8 . {sent} mr. nystrom moves : {sent} motion no. 8 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 3 by striking out lines 13 to 15 at page 2 . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 8 ( mr. nystrom ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 11a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 11a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 3 by adding immediately after line 24 at page 2 the following : {sent} the house divided on motion no. 11a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 12a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 12a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 4 by striking out line 30 at page 2 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " ing agent , or with such persons as have been designated by the designated groups to act as their representatives , implement employment equity by " . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 12a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 14a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 14a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 4 by striking out line 33 at page 2 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " except those in conformity with the canadian human rights act , that results " . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 14a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 16a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 16a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 4 by striking out line 46 at page 2 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " eligibility or geography according to whichever of these reference criteria provides the most opportunity to qualified members of the designated groups and from which " . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 16a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion 19b . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 19b {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 4 by adding immediately after line 2 at page 3 the following : {sent} the house divided on motion 19b ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 21a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 21a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 5 by striking out lines 12 to 16 at page 3 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " section ( 1 ) shall be {sent} ( b ) communicated to the employer 's employees and any existing bargaining agent ; and {sent} ( c ) made available to the human rights commission , on request . " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 21a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 24 . {sent} mr. nystrom moves : {sent} motion no. 24 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 6 by striking out line 22 at page 3 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " ance with the duties imposed on the employer under sections 4 and 5 and further in accordance with prescribed instructions indicating , " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 24 ( mr. nystrom ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 25a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 25a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 6 by striking out line 39 at page 3 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " moted , trained , transferred , demoted and terminated and the degree of " . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 25a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 26a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 26a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 6 by adding immediately after 41 at page 3 the following : {sent} " ( e ) the number of individuals in designated groups who apply for specific openings . " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 26a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 27a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 27a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 6 by adding immediately after line 41 at page 3 the following : {sent} " ( e ) a list of those acts undertaken by the employer pursuant to section 4 of this act . " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 27a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next question is on the amendment to motion no. 31a . {sent} is it agreed that the same vote shall be cast on the amendment to motion no. 31a ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. speaker : therefore the next vote is on the amendment to motion no. 31a . {sent} mr. cassidy moves : {sent} that motion no. 31a be amended by inserting immediately after the word " comply " , the words " with sections 4 , 5 and 6 " . {sent} the house divided on the amendment ( mr. cassidy ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the amendment lost . {sent} the next question is on motion no. 31a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 31a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 7 by striking out lines 13 and 14 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 7 . {sent} an employer who fails to comply is guilty of an offence and liable on " . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} mr. speaker : all those in favour will please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} mr. speaker : all those opposed will please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} mr. speaker : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} the house divided on motion 31a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} i take it there is agreement to apply the same recorded vote to motions nos. 32a , 34 , 35 , 39 and 39a . {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. speaker : therefore the next vote is on motion no. 32a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 32a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 7 by striking out line 16 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " five hundred thousand dollars . " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 32a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 34 . {sent} mr. nystrom moves : {sent} motion no. 34 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 9 by striking out line 23 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " year under section 6 and a consolidation of action plans received in that year under section 5 , and shall , as soon as " . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 34 ( mr. nystrom ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 35 . {sent} mr. nystrom moves : {sent} motion no. 35 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended in clause 10 by striking out lines 29 and 30 at page 4 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 10 . {sent} each action plan as required under section 5 and each report filed with the minister as required under section 6 , shall be available for public " . {sent} the house divided on motion no. 35 ( mr. nystrom ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 39 . {sent} mr. nystrom moves : {sent} motion no. 39 {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended by deleting the short title and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " this act may be cited as the employers human resources reporting act . " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 39 ( mr. nystrom ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} the next vote is on motion no. 39a . {sent} mr. allmand moves : {sent} motion no. 39a {sent} that bill c-62 , be amended by deleting the short title and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " this act may be cited as the employment equity reporting act . " {sent} the house divided on motion no. 39a ( mr. allmand ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion lost . {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) moved that the bill , as amended , be concurred in . {sent} mr. speaker : is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} mr. speaker : all those in favour will please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} mr. speaker : all those opposed will please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} mr. speaker : in my opinion the yeas have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} mr. speaker : shall i dispense with the ringing of the bells ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. speaker : in addition to the hon. member for renfrew -- nipissing -- pembroke ( mr. hopkins ) in opposition , shall i count the same vote but reversed ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} the house divided on the motion ( miss macdonald ) , which was agreed to on the following division : {sent} 39 {sent} mr. speaker : i declare the motion carried . {sent} when shall the bill be read a third time ? {sent} some hon. members : now . {sent} an hon. member : at the next sitting of the house . {sent} mr. fretz : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} in the absence of the minister of state for mines ( mr. layton ) , i should like it clearly recorded that he would have voted with the government had he been here . {sent} some hon. members : shame , shame ! {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} ambition has no bounds . {sent} it being 1.15 p.m. i do now leave the chair until 2 p.m. {sent} at 1.15 p.m. the house took recess . {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} after recess {sent} the house resumed at 2 p.m. {sent} statements pursuant to s.o. 21 {sent} charter of rights {sent} aid to litigants {sent} we note that corporations have been the most successful users of the charter in their own interests . {sent} they have the money to take the government to court in lengthy , costly court challenges . {sent} while business can deduct the costs , individuals cannot . {sent} there are 55 cases waiting for financial help to start the process toward justice . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} external affairs {sent} canada -- united states extradition treaty -- case of leonard peltier {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , 10 years ago leonard peltier was extradited from canada on the basis of information provided by the united states government . {sent} the u.s. has now admitted that the information was false . {sent} this constitutes a treaty fraud between our nations , and should we sleep on this case we can surely expect a repetition in the future . {sent} it is the responsibility of the minister of justice ( mr. crosbie ) to remedy this through his counterpart in the united states , and of the secretary of states for external affairs ( mr. clark ) to do the same . {sent} leonard peltier is an ojibway lakota indian who sought political asylum in canada . {sent} for 10 years he has been held in u.s. prisons serving two consecutive life sentences for crimes it now appears he did not commit . {sent} the u.s. congress has charged that evidence brought forward on the peltier case clearly indicates " government abuse of the investigative process , suppression of evidence , and falsehood " . {sent} religious leaders from around the world , four winners of the nobel peace prize , 55 members of congress , and many others , have appealed for a new trial for leonard peltier . {sent} the least we can do as a house of commons is call for a new and fair trial . {sent} as a nation we should also call for the return of leonard peltier . {sent} he was fraudulantly extradited -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} abortion {sent} practices of approval committees {sent} this legislation has become even more relevant with revelations with week of more evidence about the functioning of therapeutic abortion committees . {sent} questions have been raised about whether applications are considered in fact or whether they are just rubber-stamped . {sent} this issue is a difficult one for many canadians . {sent} there are millions who occupy one side of the debate or the other . {sent} it is for precisely this reason that it must be addressed . {sent} the abortion approval process is a matter that requires clarification . {sent} mothers , doctors , and child protection agencies must know the requirements of canada 's criminal code on this issue . {sent} it is clear that practices have developed which are well outside the spirit of the criminal code . {sent} many doctors may be unwittingly breaching the criminal code and are parties to criminal offences . {sent} youth {sent} international promotion of " just say no " anti-drug campaign {sent} mr. michel champagne ( champlain ) : mr. speaker , i should like to draw to the attention of the house a significant event which concerns us all regardless of age , province or political party . {sent} a large group of young canadians accompanied by the polgar sisters of hungary , the world chess champions , are working on the international promotion of the " just say no " anti-drug campaign . {sent} in conclusion , mr. speaker , i want to offer them my full support because these young people are striving to restore peace in the world , an endeavour at which our elders have failed in many cases . {sent} shipbuilding {sent} city of vancouver 's resolution {sent} mr. dave dingwall ( cape breton -- east richmond ) : mr. speaker , in january the canadian shipbuilding and ship repairing association said the following : {sent} the outlook for canada 's shipbuilding and allied industries during 1986 will remain dismal without immmediate government policy action . {sent} the city of vancouver has passed a resolution which reads as follows : {sent} whereas canada 's sovereignty over its arctic territories has been challenged ; {sent} and whereas this challenge can only be met if canada asserts its sovereignty through meaningful development of the canadian north and the construction of appropriate ships with icebreaking capability ; {sent} and whereas the west coast shipbuilding industry has developed a highly competitive ability to build such ships ; {sent} and whereas the continuation and well-being of the shipbuilding industry in north vancouver is of enormous economic importance not only to north vancouver but to the whole region ; {sent} and whereas the conservative government promised a meaningful job creation program in the west ; {sent} and whereas the north vancouver shipbuilding industry now faces virtual extinction with disastrous economic consequence unless immediate action is taken -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} energy {sent} effect of falling oil prices on small companies {sent} mr. ian waddell ( vancouver -- kingsway ) : mr. speaker , canada has a problem in alberta . {sent} alberta faces the bleak prospect of losing jobs , money , and people as a result of the dramatic fall in the price of crude oil . {sent} for example , as many as 15,000 jobs on drilling rigs may be lost by the end of this year . {sent} david hatter , a respected writer , said in the financial post : {sent} then " americanization " of the canadian oil industry is under way again , with major u.s. firms bidding for the remains of canadian-owned companies that have been mortally wounded by collapsing world oil prices . {sent} i would like to offer the minister of energy , mines and resources ( miss carney ) the co-operation of the new democratic party . {sent} i think a floor price is a better answer . {sent} however , we have an open mind . {sent} if the minister introduces legislation to give fair help to the canadian oil industry , she will have the support of the new democratic party . {sent} canadian broadcasting corporation {sent} possible closure of stations in gaspé region {sent} incidentally , 10,000 gaspé peninsula residents have signed a petition to express their deep concern and determination concerning that issue . {sent} mr. speaker , i am aware that this is a time for retraints and cut-backs , but it would be unacceptable and shameful if communities which are already quite underprivileged were to be the victims . {sent} among others , matane 's station has been promoting regional interests for a number of years and the public has had nothing but praise for its commendable efforts . {sent} mr. speaker , i should hope that the notions of justice , logic and human dignity will prevail -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please , the 60 seconds have expired . {sent} order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} law day {sent} bar association 's activities {sent} mrs. mary collins ( capilano ) : mr. speaker , today , april 17 , is an important day for canadians . {sent} this fourth annual law day is the biggest yet . {sent} mock trials , court room tours , and media interviews give the public a unique opportunity to find out more about canadian law . {sent} while we in this house bear the onerous responsibility of making the law , it is essential that canadians understand their laws . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} pornography {sent} decision by 7-eleven stores to stop selling pornographic magazines {sent} mr. bill attewell ( don valley east ) : mr. speaker , i want to commend the management of the 7-eleven convenience stores for their decision to stop selling pornographic magazines . {sent} hardcore , violent pornography is having a cancerous effect on morals and quality of life in canada . {sent} it is addictive . {sent} erotica often leads to softcore pornography , which leads to hardcore , violent pornography . {sent} i urge the management of other convenience stores , such as mac 's milk and becker 's , to follow the courageous lead of 7-eleven . {sent} the family {sent} access to child care services {sent} since the middle of march , i have attended the hearings of the parliamentary committee on daycare . {sent} i would like to call the attention of the house to the views of various witnesses . {sent} many parents are asking that quality services be available and that they be organized by the government . {sent} of course , we also hear about the great number of latchkey children . {sent} the parents are criticized for leaving their children without supervision , but when we look at the reason for this , we find that it is because daycare services are unavailable or simply too costly . {sent} this is certainly food for thought ! {sent} organ banks {sent} appeal for bequest of organs following deaths {sent} mr. gilles bernier ( beauce ) : mr. speaker , i rise to express my support for all the men and women who are willing to donate their organs . {sent} we have to applaud all these people who are aware of the need for livers , kidneys , eyes and hearts . {sent} we have to encourage those who work at promoting organ banks . {sent} i take this opportunity to invite all canadian men and women to contribute generously by donating their organs when they die . {sent} thousands of people wait for an organ to give them some hope to improve or prolong their life . {sent} this is the most precious posthumous gift that a human being can give to someone who is still living . {sent} the scientific obstacles have long disappeared , we now have the necessary knowledge in canada and the hospitals have the required facilities . {sent} this is a priceless contribution . {sent} trust companies {sent} non payment of income tax {sent} in 1985 their profits collectively went up by a whopping 44 per cent over 1984 , yet their taxes paid actually fell by 4 per cent . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} the economy {sent} reduction in bank of canada rate {sent} over the past few months , thanks to our budgetary and economic initiatives , interest rates have gone down by more than 3.5 per cent . {sent} on a $ 50,000 mortgage , this represents a saving of $ 1,750 per year , or $ 34 per week . {sent} we have managed to help the economy recover without increasing inflation . {sent} with our government , canadians' savings maintain their purchasing power , which was not the case under the liberals inflationary policies . {sent} equality rights {sent} government actions on behalf of women {sent} canadian women fought vigorously for the inclusion of equality rights in our constitution , yet women know that equality embraces much more than legal declarations . {sent} these measures and others are evidence of the government 's commitment to equality for canadian women . {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} oral question period {sent} external affairs {sent} wish of hundreds of canadians to leave libya -- measures government intends to take {sent} hon. donald j. johnston ( saint-henri -- westmount ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} according to michel tessier , our vice-consul in tripoli , there are now hundreds of canadians who would like to leave libya . {sent} what measures does the canadian government intend to take to provide for the immediate departure of these canadians ? {sent} hon. erik nielsen ( deputy prime minister and minister of national defence ) : mr. speaker , we are in constant touch with our consular officials in libya . {sent} therefore my responses yesterday , which no doubt the hon. member has seen , have not altered . {sent} proceedings at oecd meeting {sent} hon. donald j. johnston ( saint-henri -- westmount ) : mr. speaker , this is an issue involving the safety of canadians which must be followed up , and it will be . {sent} hon. erik nielsen ( deputy prime minister and minister of national defence ) : that matter has been discussed and the secretary of state for external affairs is at those meetings . {sent} imposition of economic sanctions {sent} hon. donald j. johnston ( saint-henri -- westmount ) : mr. speaker , i am not sure what that is supposed to tell us . {sent} we have the prime minister in the house so let me try him again . {sent} on january 10 we began building a strong set of economic sanctions against libya because we took the view that terrorism was an unacceptable evil and had to be dealt with . {sent} we believed at that time that supporting the u.s. in a series of economic sanctions would be the best way to proceed . {sent} it turned out that that did not find favour with a number of allies . {sent} however , canada persisted in that view and supported the notion that this was an excellent first step to be taken along the diplomatic and economic route . {sent} that step having failed , other steps were taken by the u.s. those have been discussed by myself and the deputy prime minister . {sent} safety of canadian citizens in libya {sent} hon. william rompkey ( grand falls -- white bay -- labrador ) : mr. speaker , i want to follow up with the prime minister on the topic of the safety of canadians in libya . {sent} our consular representative has said that he has been inundated with phone calls from canadians concerned about the critical situation , yet he knows of no plans to evacuate them . {sent} we understand there are three hercules aircraft in lahr , germany , which could be used to evacuate canadians from libya . {sent} that is simply not true . {sent} the government has been in touch with our officials as recently as the last couple of hours and we have the direct assurance that there is no immediate threat to canadians . {sent} with respect to contingency plans , as i said yesterday and have been saying throughout , it is not helpful to the discussion and would jeopardize the very plans themselves to discuss them openly in public . {sent} the hon. gentleman , having been a member of a previous government , should know that . {sent} evacuation measures {sent} hon. william rompkey ( grand falls -- white bay -- labrador ) : that may be true , mr. speaker , but we can only go on the basis of information we have . {sent} the information we have from the globe and mail this morning says that canadians -- {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. rompkey : you have to get your information from somewhere if you cannot get it from the government . {sent} our consul says they are becoming increasingly worried , and about a quarter of them want to get out -- {sent} mr. speaker : this is a supplementary question . {sent} does the hon. member have a question , please ? {sent} mr. rompkey : if those hercules are not going to be used in view of the situation , what are the government 's plans ? {sent} can the government tell us what plans it has to evacuate canadians in this serious situation ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the consular officials are not advising the government in any way along the lines suggested by my hon. friend . {sent} second , the airport is now either open or in the process of being opened for commercial travel . {sent} mr. johnston : they will go by wardair , i suppose . {sent} mr. mulroney : the hon. gentleman from westmount on a serious matter talks about wardair . {sent} i can tell him that we do not do this frivolously . {sent} mr. allmand : you didn't show up for two days . {sent} mr. mulroney : i can tell him that we have contingency plans which involve the government of canada -- {sent} mr. gauthier : tell us about it . {sent} mr. mulroney : -- to protect the security of canadians , as opposed to these frivolous acts by the opposition . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} exit visas inquiry {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain ) : mr. speaker , my question is also directed to the prime minister and it is on the same general topic . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the deputy prime minister indeed made reference to a communication we had received from a senior official of the government of libya . {sent} it is exactly as my hon. friend has reported it to be . {sent} however , we have no information that would cause us the kind of concern to which he refers . {sent} in fact the level of anxiety and concern among canadian residents presently in libya has declined substantially . {sent} case of canadian family {sent} they want to leave libya but they cannot obtain either an exit visa or a means of leaving the country . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : i will be happy to do that , mr. speaker , and advise the hon. member just as quickly as i can . {sent} government position {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , we have consular officials who are discussing this sur place with the canadian nationals . {sent} equality rights {sent} court challenges program -- composition of approval panel membership {sent} mr. roland de corneille ( eglinton -- lawrence ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the hon. secretary of state . {sent} today is equality day and seven months have passed since the court challenges program came into effect to enforce section 15 of the charter . {sent} can the minister explain why it is , still to this day , the names of the equality panel submitted to the minister by the canadian council on social development have not been approved ? {sent} there are 25 to 30 equality cases waiting in the hands of that council pending action by the minister , and still not a dollar in the equality area has been put into the hands of those waiting for justice . {sent} about twenty cases are being examined at this time . {sent} the sub-committee was formed some time ago , and it is operational . {sent} i think that the fact we are taking the time to do so guarantees the high standard of the decisions that will be made . {sent} provisions of proposed legislation {sent} mr. roland de corneille ( eglinton -- lawrence ) : mr. speaker , it is obvious that nothing has been done on the equality panel . {sent} that is the short answer to the question . {sent} hon. benoît bouchard ( secretary of state of canada ) : mr. speaker , i think i did answer the previous question . {sent} we are establishing procedures in areas where human rights are concerned , where every necessary precaution must be taken . {sent} once again , we believe that the procedures we have today are the right ones . {sent} we are working on very basic and fundamental matters , where our initial decisions will affect all subsequent decisions . {sent} i don't think we can be accused of -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the hon. member for vancouver east ( ms. mitchell ) . {sent} child care {sent} provision of services {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of national health and welfare . {sent} today we celebrate the anniversary of the charter of rights . {sent} request for federal funding {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , i think the minister will recall that the prime minister also promised funding . {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member sits on that very task force . {sent} she knows that there have to be additions , changes , and improvements to day care . {sent} we all recognize that . {sent} week after week the task force has been asking for people 's views . {sent} for her to say now that she already has a solution , regardless of the fact that the work has not been done , is unfair to those people appearing before the task force . {sent} external affairs {sent} united states-libya confrontation -- prime minister 's knowledge {sent} hon. warren allmand ( notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister . {sent} will the prime minister tell the house specifically when and from whom he first learned of the american plans to attack libya ? {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , we have indicated that we were kept informed of developments , as an ally ought to be kept informed . {sent} we put forward views , particularly dealing with the safety and security of canadian nationals in libya , all of whom are still there . {sent} it would be singularly unhelpful to them to reveal any details in regard to that . {sent} timing of receipt of information {sent} hon. warren allmand ( notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ) : mr. speaker , i asked the prime minister two questions . {sent} i asked him when he was informed , and he did not answer that question . {sent} i asked him by whom he was informed , and he did not answer that question . {sent} because i do not think that these are the type of questions he can avoid answering i will ask them again . {sent} considering his good relationship with the president of the united states , will he tell us on what date , at what time , and by whom he was first informed ? {sent} specifically , what kind of advice did he give to the individual who told him ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member is not going fishing but is going to new heights of irresponsibility . {sent} he asked two questions and i have no intention of answering either because they could affect the security and safety of canadians in libya . {sent} that is an irresponsible suggestion the hon. member made . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} equality rights {sent} membership of court challenges panel {sent} i would ask the minister of justice why it is that the government has refused so far to approve this important list with the result that very many important court challenges remain unfunded . {sent} is the minister in fact attempting to exert a degree of political interference in what should be an arm 's length process ? {sent} we are dealing with public funds and we have to be satisfied that the members of the board that is to be set up are perfectly satisfactory from all points of view . {sent} principle of reasonable accommodation {sent} women {sent} lack of child care centres -- equality in labour force -- government position {sent} mrs. lucie pépin ( outremont ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of national health and welfare . {sent} in her report on employment equality , judge rosalie abella stated that the lack of daycare services is a major obstacle to employment equality for women . {sent} i would like to know whether the government is prepared to support this view and acknowledge that the lack of daycare facilities is indeed a major obstacle to the equality of women on the labour market ? {sent} the hon. member knows , as she is a member of the task force , that those very points are being made by the task force according to reports i have received . {sent} it is for that reason that i look forward to its recommendations . {sent} we are looking at how best to do it . {sent} there have been other reports , like the cooke report , about which there have been very serious questions concerning the figures , from some quarters . {sent} we are looking at how we can best deliver the service , keeping in mind the jurisdictional question as well , with the moneys available , and i think that that is -- {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} child care services -- government position {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , i will not pre-empt the position of the recommendations that will be coming from the task force . {sent} federal provincial affairs {sent} quebec -- transfer payments -- government position {sent} mr. mike cassidy ( ottawa-centre ) : mr. speaker , in the absence of the minister of finance , my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} the premier of quebec has just announced that quebec will be receiving $ 66 million less in equalization payments for the 1985-86 financial year than had been expected . {sent} the federal government has therefore failed to meet its commitment that it would maintain equalization payments at a minimum of 95 per cent of the amount quebec received the year before . {sent} how does the federal government intend to compensate quebec for this loss of $ 66 million in equalization payments ? {sent} last year , we acted fairly and honourably towards quebec , and as far as i know , we have met and respected all our commitments to quebec . {sent} commitment to quebec {sent} mr. mike cassidy ( ottawa-centre ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary . {sent} why did the federal government forget its promise to meet this commitment to quebec ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , what the hon. member is saying is utter nonsense . {sent} the fact is that last year , we unilaterally paid over $ 100 million to quebec , which amount had been cancelled by the previous liberal government . {sent} it was our government that gave more than $ 100 million to quebec , manitoba and nova scotia , and so forth . {sent} this government has rebuilt federal-provincial relations on a far more constructive and reasonable basis . {sent} canadian broadcasting corporation {sent} head office control over news stories {sent} mr. john a. macdougall ( timiskaming ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of communications . {sent} last week in the house i questioned the parliamentary secretary on the spending practices of cbc radio in northern ontario , something which i thought was newsworthy . {sent} i have learned that a cbc regional supervisor in ontario ordered regional stations not to run the story unless they first contacted the head office in toronto . {sent} would the minister please ask the president of the cbc if every story has to be run through the head office , or just those that criticize the cbc . {sent} hon. marcel masse ( minister of communications ) : mr. speaker , i can confirm the existence of this cbc memo , directive or guideline . {sent} i was told about it this morning and i will wait until the president of the cbc comes back from china where he is now and ask for his advice , suggestions or ideas concerning this matter . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- canadian exports {sent} mr. dave dingwall ( cape breton -- east richmond ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the right hon. prime minister . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , this is the kind of silly question one is loath to dignify with an answer . {sent} i simply will not . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} canadian government 's position {sent} mr. dave dingwall ( cape breton -- east richmond ) : perhaps a silly question , mr. speaker , but a silly prime minister . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} just a short question , please . {sent} mr. dingwall : surely the prime minister and his government have been canvassing u.s. senators and congressmen in the administration with regard to the preconditions they may be seeking . {sent} will the prime minister explain to the house exactly what the preconditions are that are being sought by the american administration ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i have already indicated the position of the government of canada is that we shall not accept any such preconditions . {sent} i think i have made that very clear . {sent} moreover -- {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. mulroney : it is so bad on the liberal side today , mr. speaker , that we may have to ask for the return of the leader of the opposition . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. mulroney : why is he always absent when we are discussing important matters ? {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} farm credit corporation {sent} moratorium on farm foreclosures {sent} mr. vic althouse ( humboldt -- lake centre ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of agriculture . {sent} in a news release on february 27 the minister stated that : {sent} the moratorium on fcc foreclosures will be lifted only when the commodity based loans and rural transition programs are up and running . {sent} with no programs yet in place , will the minister state more precisely the conditions under which he will now lift the moratorium ? {sent} will it now be after harvest ? {sent} is the minister going to lift it now , or is he waiting for farmers to seed the crops so that the fcc can reap them ? {sent} proposed commodity based mortgage program {sent} they can't assess whether a farmer is even eligible . {sent} they have to know their seeding time -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} this is long . {sent} hon. john wise ( minister of agriculture ) : mr. speaker , i do not detect in the country or in my day-to-day communications with farm organizations any confusion at all . {sent} mr. althouse : if they announce it in june , what happens ? {sent} environmental affairs {sent} niagara river pollution -- canada-united states negotiations {sent} mr. rob nicholson ( niagara falls ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the parliamentary secretary to the minister of the environment . {sent} the niagara river is the source of drinking water for millions of canadians and its pollution is everyone 's concern . {sent} what progress has been made in negotiating a comprehensive clean-up package with the americans , and how soon can we expect that package ? {sent} mr. g. m. gurbin ( parliamentary secretary to minister of the environment ) : mr. speaker , the government appreciates the member 's ongoing concern for the quality of water in the niagara river . {sent} the clean-up plan requires the co-operation of the governments of canada , the united states , new york state and the province of ontario . {sent} we have been engaged in long and difficult negotiations since october , 1985 . {sent} while they have been long and difficult , progress has been made . {sent} we hope to be able to report a conclusion agreeable to all parties within the next several weeks . {sent} unemployment insurance {sent} date of decision to apply regulation with regard to early retirees {sent} mr. alfonso gagliano ( saint-léonard -- anjou ) : mr. speaker , i wish to direct a question to the minister of employment and immigration . {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , this question has been raised , as you know , a number of times in the house by different members . {sent} i will tell the hon. member , as i have told others on numerous occasions , that this is a regulation which was introduced at the time of the economic statement in november , 1984 . {sent} it was given a year 's lead time before implementation . {sent} it came into effect in january of this year . {sent} the whole measure has also been referred to the forget commission for consideration , and i am awaiting the results of the commission 's review . {sent} inquiry how minister can pretend to have informed beneficiaries in advance {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , members of the house will know that this issue has been raised time and again . {sent} what was taking place was conveyed to members of the house of commons . {sent} letters were sent to all major employers across the country by the unemployment insurance commission . {sent} people have been notified in company after company . {sent} members have been notified . {sent} i will continue to ensure that members are notified as they ask additional questions . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- action of u.s. senators {sent} will the prime minister himself personally tell president reagan that that kind of blackmail from the u.s. senate is simply unacceptable to the canadian people ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the word ambush suggests some great untoward set of circumstances . {sent} i point out to my hon. friend with regard to that , that in an interview on global television on august 29 last i said : {sent} -- my concern is that if we shilly-shally unduly that by the time we get there the americans may say , well lookit we 're not interested -- {sent} in my statement in the house of commons on september 26 i said : {sent} success is not a sure thing -- {sent} now you find out , because you have been ambushed , that that is not the case all along , that it will be difficult because this kind of a deal will be a good deal for canada . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} prime minister 's position {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary question . {sent} we could take the prime minister back to his words before he was elected , at which point he opposed free trade . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} he has led us down a blind path . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i know that decency is a rare commodity when my hon. friend gets cornered as he is , up against the detroit river . {sent} there is in canada as in the united states some skepticism as to whether any such agreement could get by a congress which seems to be growing more and more protectionist . {sent} mr. fulton : they don't even know your name down there , muldoon . {sent} mr. mulroney : -- could result in new jobs , new wealth , and new prosperity for canada . {sent} that is what we offered , as opposed to the old status quo -- {sent} mr. waddell : play it again , muldoon . {sent} mr. mulroney : -- which comes from the " apostles of reaction " approach by the ndp . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} agriculture {sent} meat inspection -- newspaper report {sent} can he further confirm the report that tonnes of unfit pork and chicken were improperly approved for market ? {sent} hon. john wise ( minister of agriculture ) : no , mr. speaker , i cannot confirm that at the moment . {sent} that information was brought to my attention early this morning . {sent} quite appropriately and properly , under the terms of the meat inspection act , which does not extend ministerial authority to me , i made inquiry of the appropriate senior officials . {sent} the member may take some satisfaction , as i did , from the fact that an investigation had already commenced before i called . {sent} request for committee investigation {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , first it was tainted tuna , then it was tb buffalo , and now it is contaminated chicken . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} hon. john wise ( minister of agriculture ) : mr. speaker , i can certainly confirm that this is not a matter of contamination . {sent} i do not know why the member is so nervous , because i have every confidence in the meat inspection system of the country . {sent} regional industrial expansion {sent} northern new brunswick -- request for concentrated approach {sent} mr. albert girard ( restigouche ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of regional industrial expansion . {sent} i am also aware of the great success the minister has been having in cape breton . {sent} will the minister now instruct his department to make the same kind of concentrated effort to help restigouche overcome its high unemployment ? {sent} industry {sent} algoma steel -- announcement of lay-offs {sent} mr. john r. rodriguez ( nickel belt ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister and is with regard to the announcement last evening by algoma steel of the lay-off of approximately 1,500 workers . {sent} will the prime minister cause an investigation to be held , with public hearings , in order that algoma steel can come before a committee and justify the lay-off of 1,500 workers ? {sent} hon. sinclair stevens ( minister of regional industrial expansion ) : mr. speaker , algoma steel has been in touch with my department . {sent} it has indicated the circumstances which now exist , which , unfortunately , are leading to the lay-offs to which the hon. member has referred . {sent} i assure the hon. member that the matter is in hand as far as the government of canada is concerned . {sent} tax incentive granted company {sent} mr. john r. rodriguez ( nickel belt ) : mr. speaker , my supplementary question is directed to the minister of state for finance . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , this involves two areas of considerable attention for us . {sent} one is the tax fairness which we brought to the corporation tax system . {sent} the other is employment opportunities throughout canada , and particularly in areas like northern ontario . {sent} we have always worked with companies -- {sent} mr. rodriguez : that 's not an answer to the question . {sent} mrs. mcdougall : -- including companies like algoma , to try to provide them with investment opportunities which create jobs . {sent} canada post corporation {sent} distribution of pornographic material {sent} ms. sheila copps ( hamilton east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} hon. michel côté ( minister of consumer and corporate affairs and canada post ) : mr. speaker , we are aware of the situation , of course . {sent} we have already begun an examination and we will have comments to make about this later on . {sent} role of minister of justice {sent} ms. sheila copps ( hamilton east ) : mr. speaker , the minister responsible says that an examination has begun . {sent} i was told by canada post this morning that the material is all right because it is not pornography , but only an ad for pornography . {sent} hon. john c. crosbie ( minister of justice and attorney general of canada ) : mr. speaker , the minister responsible for the status of women has already brought this complaint to my attention . {sent} ms. copps : why has nothing been done ? {sent} mr. crosbie : i do not know how the hon. member got on this list as well . {sent} we are checking this with canada post . {sent} in addition , mr. speaker , we will be introducing suggested legislation to deal with the problem of pornography in general in the next few weeks . {sent} energy {sent} effect of falling oil prices on small companies {sent} mr. ian waddell ( vancouver -- kingsway ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of energy . {sent} would she agree with me that canada is experiencing a real crisis in the decline of the alberta economy due to the collapsing world prices ? {sent} on behalf of my party i want to offer the minister our co-operation if she is prepared to bring forth legislation to help small canadian oil companies . {sent} is she prepared to consider helping small canadian oil companies in alberta in order to do something to help that economy ? {sent} hon. pat carney ( minister of energy , mines and resources ) : mr. speaker , i have already assured the hon. member that our consultations in this area are going well . {sent} we are looking at all options which will provide some relief to an area of the country which is being badly devastated . {sent} mr. waddell : i hope she will treat the matter with some urgency . {sent} financial post article {sent} mr. ian waddell ( vancouver -- kingsway ) : does the minister agree with the respected energy writer , david hatter , who has written the following in this week 's the financial post : {sent} is the minister aware of that problem ? {sent} is she prepared to protect small canadian oil companies from being gobbled up by the big american companies ? {sent} official languages {sent} linguistic programs -- government position {sent} mr. jean-robert gauthier ( ottawa -- vanier ) : mr. speaker , i wish to direct a question to the secretary of state . {sent} speaking on behalf of the government last october 19 , the secretary of state said something about strong leadership and promised to maintain and reinforce the government 's linguistic programs . {sent} which of these positions is the government 's position ? {sent} that of the person responsible for the linguistic policy , or that of a reluctant conservative government ? {sent} i think there are very basic considerations in this issue . {sent} the federal system itself is very complex . {sent} business of the house {sent} business of the house {sent} weekly statement {sent} hon. ray hnatyshyn ( president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , this afternoon we will consider the second reading stage of bill c-45 . {sent} tomorrow , we will start consideration of the report stage of bill c-87 , an act to authorize the divestiture of canadian aresenals limited . {sent} subsequently , we will continue consideration of bill c-45 . {sent} monday , we will start the third reading of bill c-62 , an act respecting employment equity . {sent} once that has been completed , we will get back to bil c-45 . {sent} mr. speaker , i will monitor the situation very closely and make additional announcements if necessary . {sent} in any event it would be a direction to the table . {sent} the clerk would receive and accept that petition by direct delivery , or with an accompanying letter . {sent} there would be no requirement for a response because of the fact it does not comply with the new standing orders . {sent} it would not be delivered or presented in the house , but it would be done directly with the clerk of the house . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} i do not think the chair requires that there be a motion to that effect . {sent} may i just be clear that the house wishes the table to have the petitions that were in the correct form before and shall be regarded as though they were in the correct form ? {sent} we will look at what the hon. president of the privy council ( mr. hnatyshyn ) has said . {sent} we may have to come back and ask for a house order . {sent} if so , i take it there is a willingness to do so . {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , i have a question for the president of the privy council . {sent} we understand that later on this afternoon , at 4.30 , to be precise , the minister of state for finance ( mrs. mcdougall ) will be making a statement in the house under tabling of documents . {sent} is it the understanding at that time then that members of the opposition would have an equal opportunity to respond to her statement ? {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : the hon. member did anticipate the next point that i was going to raise . {sent} this being equality day , we would not want to breach that principle and not allow the opposition the opportunity of responding to what i know will be an excellent statement . {sent} i have a draft order which has been the subject of discussion and i have presented this order to the opposition parties . {sent} i think you would find a disposition to have this order received with unanimous consent and passed without debate . {sent} the order is as follows : {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : mr. speaker , my proposal is that all the normal proceedings would simply take place at the conclusion of the additional time added on . {sent} it will not be a long statement , but we will continue with the adjournment motions immediately following the extended time period today . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} can we procedurally deal with the question ? {sent} does the president of the privy council ( mr. hnatyshyn ) have the unanimous consent necessary to introduce the motion ? {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : the house leader for the official opposition is asking a legitimate question . {sent} mr. riis : i was attempting to simply answer the question that was raised by the hon. house leader for the official opposition ( mr. gray ) . {sent} mr. speaker : does the president of the privy council have the unanimous consent necessary for the introduction of his motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. speaker : the house has heard the terms of the motion . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. speaker : agreed and so ordered . {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relatins act {sent} government orders {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} measure to enact {sent} mr. speaker : resuming debate with six minutes remaining . {sent} mr. mike cassidy ( ottawa centre ) : when i was so rudely interrupted it was november 4 , 1985 , and it has therefore been some 164 days since this bill was last debated . {sent} he indicated , in other words , that we would be saving time by this particular measure . {sent} prior to your leaving the chair perhaps i can just catch your attention for a minute . {sent} i am sorry to say that to my friend , the speaker . {sent} i want to say to you , sir , now that you have replaced the speaker , that i am very disturbed about this . {sent} the house of commons should not be putting itself in this position . {sent} there happens to be a dispute between the parties and delay by the government , because apparently it does not want canada labour code coverage of house of commons' employees . {sent} that is a partisan position . {sent} since the canada labour board recognized our employees some six or seven months ago , it is wrong for there not to have been meaningful negotiations . {sent} the mediator has made an attempt to get things going but nothing has happened . {sent} the employees continue to be frustrated . {sent} - parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} the application before the canada labour board was november , 1983 , some two and a half years ago . {sent} we do not know what is going to happen now . {sent} the argument that the canada labour board should delay because the government was treating the matter as one of urgency is patently untrue . {sent} if the government wanted to treat this as a matter of urgency it would have brought bill c-45 back on november 6 or november 10 , certainly well before christmas . {sent} it would have gone to committee , come back for third reading and been disposed of . {sent} whether or not members of my party agreed with bill c-45 as it was then , at least there would be a measure in being . {sent} in fact , there is a measure in being . {sent} just like employees of the privy council , the governor general and a number of other federal government agencies , house of commons employees are a recognized bargaining unit . {sent} they are certified as a union under the canada labour code . {sent} therefore this house , which should be acting as a model for labour relations , is working in exactly the contrary direction . {sent} the motion before us right now requests a delay in passage of this bill for a period of time . {sent} it was proposed by the hon. member for hamilton east ( ms. copps ) , and i continue to support it in the hope that at last the house of commons will enter into some serious negotiations with its employees . {sent} i do not understand what is going on . {sent} under the canada labour code they would have input and be able to negotiate regarding those issues . {sent} under this bill they will not . {sent} therefore , those issues which have provoked employees to sign union cards and keep at it for such a long time are not being resolved with this bill . {sent} they fear , with reason , that this bill will prove to be even less effective than the public service staff relations act . {sent} there is no staff relations board to which they can appeal on matters in dispute with their employer . {sent} this bill could also be interpreted as a thinly disguised attempt at union bashing . {sent} the certification process these employees have gone through already before the canada labour board will have to be repeated for the third , fourth or fifth time . {sent} they will be asked to sign union cards again . {sent} they are not guaranteed that the staff relations board will recognize the same bargaining units recognized by the canada labour board . {sent} there are further opportunities for delay given to the employer if it decides to act as it has been acting . {sent} as one member of parliament to whom , theoretically , the speaker is responsible , i would have thought that we would not be playing these games . {sent} this is the parliament of canada , a country which , in its labour relations statutes , acknowledges the right of working people to form unions and bargain collectively . {sent} that is a right for which working people have fought in every country . {sent} it is traditionally one of the first rights to be taken away when dictators take away the rights of working people and attack democracy . {sent} is the house of commons to be an accomplice in undermining the democratic rights of the 1,200 workers who have won certification ? {sent} that would appear to be the case . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret the hon. member 's time has expired . {sent} mr. lewis : i don't . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions or comments . {sent} mr. rodriguez : mr. speaker , before i put a question to my colleague i want to preface it with a few remarks about something that took place about two years ago , just after the 1984 election . {sent} it was revealed in archives tapes that there were reports by a previous speaker of sexual harassment of staff on this hill . {sent} women had to lay their bodies down to get and keep jobs here . {sent} it seems to me that any kind of collective bargaining process must include mp 's staff and your honour 's staff . {sent} i want to ask my colleague why he thinks the staff of members of the house of commons are not included in this bill . {sent} mr. cassidy : mr. speaker , i cannot answer that question . {sent} i suppose maybe somewhere in the dark recesses of the minds of certain members of cabinet we could find an explanation for the exclusion of 1,200 people who work for members of different parties . {sent} as my hon. friend knows , we have in our caucus a staff association . {sent} it seeks to act like a union but it is extremely difficult because it does not and cannot get certification . {sent} the extension of bargaining rights to members' employees does not automatically mean there is going to be a strike in every conservative corridor . {sent} it is up to the employees whether or not they want to exercise their rights , as it is in the private sector . {sent} however , having access to those rights , even if you do not use them , is a powerful incentive for employers to treat their employees decently . {sent} they know that if they go too far they will provoke the employees into exercising their rights . {sent} there are , again and again , instances of employees working side by side , doing the same job , with salary differences amounting to thousands of dollars . {sent} competitions are not held for certain positions . {sent} those positions are filled on a temporary basis . {sent} these irregularities must end , but i am afraid that bill c-45 does not provide the assurance that those irregularities will end . {sent} if my hon. friend has other questions i will be happy to answer them . {sent} the hon. member has mentioned some examples of this . {sent} would the hon. member tell us how collective bargaining rights might help in promoting greater equality on the hill ? {sent} but the employee acting on his or her own is defenceless , or almost so , against arbitrary acts by the supervisor or manager for whom he or she may happen to work . {sent} that is why people finally become so frustrated that they decide they want a union . {sent} employers wonder why they all cannot get along together . {sent} i can give an example of sexual harrassment which was given to me by the union . {sent} in a support service in the house of commons a female employee is the object of sexual harrassment . {sent} her manager touches her , leans up behind her and rubs against her . {sent} when she protests , she is assigned to a heavier work-load , later given a poor performance rating and finally transferred to another position . {sent} if that occurs and there is an effective union , at least that woman has means of fighting back against that kind of mistreatment by her supervisor . {sent} that is why we want effective collective bargaining rights for the workforce in the house of commons . {sent} that is why we want the labour board certification proceeded with . {sent} we certainly do not want a toothless bill such as represented by bill c-45 . {sent} mr. heap : mr. speaker , i would like to ask my colleague what his understanding is of the suggested reason for refusing the right to strike to all of these employees . {sent} the suggested reason is , of course , that the government of canada cannot be allowed to be caused to cease governing , that it must continuing governing no matter what . {sent} therefore , there cannot be undertaken any risk that it might be stopped by a strike . {sent} i would like my colleague to comment on that reasoning . {sent} mr. rodriguez : that is assuming that parliament is an essential service . {sent} mr. cassidy : my friend , the hon. member for nickel belt , says that is assuming that parliament is an essential service . {sent} the workings of parliament are extremely important , if not essential . {sent} i believe people would accept that . {sent} but is it essential that parliamentarians be fed in the cafeterias on parliament hill ? {sent} should there be provocation to the point that a strike occurs in that particular service , or in the messenger service or on the little green buses , would parliament still continue ? {sent} of course , it would . {sent} therefore , i think it is arguable that large areas of the work done for parliamentarians is not essential , even though the work of parliament itself is essential . {sent} we , of course , have the power to legislate were it to be ultimately required . {sent} i would hope that that would never be needed . {sent} but it is ludicrous to say that parliament cannot somehow function if some of its employees have a potential right to strike under the canada labour code . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the time for questions and comments has now terminated . {sent} my colleague from hamilton-east ( ms. copps ) has proposed that the bill be read in a month 's time and not be adopted today . {sent} i think we should ask ourselves why the motion was presented by my hon. colleague . {sent} since then , not a word about the bill until the middle of april . {sent} this reminds me of the secretary of state ( mr. bouchard ) and what he told me in the house today in referring to language programs : we must not go too fast . {sent} we cannot proceed at a brisk pace because the question is too contentious , too important and in the final instance too perilous . {sent} those were the words used by the secretary of state . {sent} bill c-45 which provides employees of the house of commons and the senate with a framework of representation is a bill which must be looked at in a new light and perspective . {sent} in its present form , the legislation has been rejected by the public service alliance of canada , as well by the national association of broadcasting employees and technicians . {sent} their concern centres on the fact that the bill enshrines in law an employer-employee relationship which does not meet with the employees' approval . {sent} with the new developments , which i will explain later , bill c-45 must be the object of further consideration by the government before it will be acceptable to its own employees . {sent} i for one would go along with the process of further consultation . {sent} i would like to see the government sit down with its employees in order to figure out a plan of action which would be acceptable to the government and to the employees of parliament . {sent} when i say " of parliament " i mean the seante , the house of commons , and the library of parliament . {sent} i consider the workers on the hill essential . {sent} whether my friend , the hon. member for ottawa centre ( mr. cassidy ) , does or does not , i do . {sent} i know for a fact that if the bus drivers , the security people , or for that matter any employee of the house of commons goes on strike , my friend from ottawa centre will be the last one to cross a picket line . {sent} i know him to be very respectful of picket lines . {sent} we have to make up our minds in respect of this matter . {sent} we cannot have it both ways . {sent} one has to stand up and say : " yes , we believe their services are essential because they serve parliament and parliament is a servant of the canadian public " . {sent} it is an essential service and it should be defined as such . {sent} i have been waiting for the clerk to bring me a definition of the word " essential " as defined in the public service staff relations act . {sent} i would like to use that definition in my participation here , and i do not have it with me . {sent} i see that a gentleman is bringing the book to me . {sent} mr. epp ( provencher ) : an essential service . {sent} mr. gauthier : yes , it is . {sent} here is an example in vivo , as we say . {sent} it is an essential service to the members of this house . {sent} the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) has stated to employee representatives that the government is willing to give parliamentary employees the same rights as those enjoyed by public servants . {sent} however , the legislation presented in the house does not live up to that billing . {sent} it does not live up to my expectations of what should be forthcoming from the treasury board as the employer of public servants . {sent} i say that it does not live up to my expectations because i went through this process before in 1976-77 . {sent} at that time the house of commons , in concert with the other place , formed a joint committee to look at possible amendments to the public service staff relations act . {sent} we did this because there are in the act matters which i find to be in great need of change . {sent} in my view , they should be modernized , if not updated , to take the wellbeing of our public servants into consideration , as well as to try to modernize the whole process of negotiation . {sent} there are matters such as classification standards to be considered . {sent} during the election campaign the governing party promised that it would make classification standards negotiable . {sent} that party has been in office for two years now and it has not even put forward a suggestion on the subject . {sent} i admit it is a complex issue . {sent} i also admit that it is a very technical one since classification standards determine where one sits in the organization , what kind of job one has waiting for one . {sent} mr. epp ( provencher ) : rug-ranking . {sent} mr. gauthier : i believe that is an image which one can use to decide where one sits dans l'organigramme de l'organisation . {sent} i find it interesting that a challenge such as amending the public service staff relations act has not been forthcoming and that the government still hesitates . {sent} it hesitates on this matter as it does on many other matters . {sent} it hesitates to come forward with some reasonable and meaningful modifications to its own public service staff relations act . {sent} yet the government would like us to buy bill c-45 when , indeed , we know that the employees are not happy with the process . {sent} why are they not happy ? {sent} i will explain why . {sent} bill c-45 does not allow the employees of the house the right to strike . {sent} it is a right which they would enjoy under the canada labour code . {sent} recent canada labour relations board rulings have indicated that hill employees are governed by the canada labour code and that they can be represented by certified bargaining units . {sent} this is the reason employees on the hill want to be covered under the canada labour code . {sent} they think that the deal they will get through that arrangement is better than the deal they will get through the public service staff relations act . {sent} the unions on the hill have said that they will forgo their right to strike because they understand what are essential services . {sent} god knows they are devoted and that they have been good to us . {sent} however , they want the assurance , as do all public servants , that binding arbitration procedures will be changed and not maintained as they exist in their present form . {sent} that is the key to the whole issue . {sent} the employees have said : " we will not strike , but you must give us a deal . {sent} we will forfeit our right to strike in exchange for an agreement on arbitration procedures and matters which are not covered in the present legislation " . {sent} i would add that they are not covered in the public service staff relations act either . {sent} nabet and psac object , in particular , to clauses 5(3) and 55(2) . {sent} clause 5(3) states : {sent} i will now read into the record clause 55(2) since it is important . {sent} it states : {sent} in the name of all of us here in parliament how can the government proceed with a bill that does not make classification standards a negotiable matter ? {sent} why do we not place that on the table ? {sent} that is what the government promised during the election campaign . {sent} it is something with which i am in accord . {sent} i do not think that members of the new democratic party would object to it . {sent} why not give some of these matters serious thought ? {sent} i recall that the treasury board , in negotiating several contracts this year , tried to give its employees a reasonable approach in regard to lay-off . {sent} we are now into an era of compression of the human resources of the government of canada . {sent} therefore , the government must be very sensitive and try to answer those justifiable and deeply felt feelings of people who may be threatened in their jobs and in their careers . {sent} that is the essential truth . {sent} when the average person in my riding thinks of the house of commons and its essential role , he or she does not understand why parliament has taken so long to come to grips with the issue of employer-employee relations . {sent} i heard the conservative member for nepean -- carleton ( mr. tupper ) on the radio the other day , and i will paraphrase what he said . {sent} he said that bill c-45 is landmark labour legislation which provides hill workers with important rights including health and safety rights . {sent} to say that bill c-45 is landmark labour legislation is , i think , to misinform canadians and the ottawa community . {sent} as a matter of fact , hill employees are covered by bill c-24 and we know that because we debated it . {sent} the workers on the hill have asked for a six-month delay . {sent} they have asked for meaningful negotiations . {sent} i believe they are in possession of a decision on the canada labour code which makes them confident that they will now be able to come forward with an meaningful employer-employee relations formula . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : are questions or comments ? {sent} if there are no questions or comments , is the house ready for the question ? {sent} mr. orlikow : no. {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , i am very pleased to speak against this bill , which i consider to be a real disgrace to members of parliament and certainly to the government . {sent} it does not deal with the real and urgent need for true collective bargaining rights for employees of parliament , including employees of members of parliament . {sent} nineteen years ago , stanley knowles spoke of the obligation of parliament to protect the rights of parliamentary employees . {sent} he advocated collective bargaining rights for all employees . {sent} according to a recent report done by mr. jeff parr who has studied this matter at some length , he has said the following : {sent} this bill does not grant rights ; indeed it restricts them . {sent} mr. parr 's report is entitled preserving the employee 's prerogative , and he also said the following : {sent} but it has been much less successful in protecting employees of parliament hill from abuse by their employers . {sent} some of those employers sit right here in parliament . {sent} i would like to relate to the house my own personal feelings about this matter . {sent} i came to this house as an elected member in 1979 . {sent} at that time , and there has not been a great deal of change since , it was very apparent to me how unprotected workers were . {sent} i was concerned particularly about the working conditions of workers on the hill . {sent} a number of employees of the parliamentary restaurant and others have spoken to me about their concerns , but they are afraid to talk openly because they feel very insecure . {sent} they are afraid of making complaints because they do not have any protection . {sent} there are no grievance procedures . {sent} i was struck , and i imagine most female members of the house were struck , by the patriarchal atmosphere of parliament hill which still exists . {sent} the kind of lack of respect that appears so often in this patriarchal atmosphere would not be tolerated if staff members had a union . {sent} it is undemocratic and it is offensive . {sent} until recently , women and men were locked in traditional job ghettos on the hill . {sent} women were the waitresses and men were the supervisors and members of the security staff with a higher rate of pay . {sent} i congratulate the former speaker of the house , who is now the governor general , for the kinds of changes she made . {sent} i am referring to changes which moved employees on the hill one step toward greater equality and equal opportunities . {sent} as well , i wish our staff were much better paid . {sent} this demonstrates that there has been some change , but the slowness of the change has been quite appalling . {sent} also it demonstrates the need for collective bargaining rights for employees who work for parliament and for members of parliament . {sent} it should be a right . {sent} they should have a proper grievance procedure and all the conditions which go along with collective bargaining rights . {sent} i should like to give two or three examples of the experiences documented by hill employees . {sent} there is quite a long list , but i will mention the ones which pertain particularly to female employees . {sent} they are some of the types of problems which reinforce the need for collective bargaining rights as a means to resolve workplace issues . {sent} the administration of the library states than an administrative error was made . {sent} this would not have been allowed to happen if those people had been in a union . {sent} another is the employee assistance program of the house of commons which was established to give employees a safety-valve or a means of having personal problems dealt with in confidence by a qualified counsellor . {sent} an appeal to the speaker asking for the position to be re-established was denied . {sent} two petitions signed by 1,500 hill employees were ignored . {sent} this kind of attitude and denial of sensible employee rights would not take place if employees on the hill had collective bargaining rights and a union of their choice . {sent} i should like to refer to another example in the support services . {sent} a female employee is the object of sexual harassment . {sent} her manager touches her , leans up behind her and rubs against her . {sent} when she protests she is assigned a heavier work-load . {sent} she is later given a poor performance evaluation and finally transferred to another position . {sent} i am sure most employees who experience sexual harassment would be afraid to complain about it under the present situation . {sent} it should not be tolerated either by workers or by all of us on the hill . {sent} the only way to deal with it in a proessional and effective way is to have a union agreement and a proper grievance procedure . {sent} i should like to refer to another example . {sent} in the cafeteria services an employee cuts his hand on the job . {sent} he is told to visit the nurse . {sent} the nurse tells him that it is not safe to work and that he should go home . {sent} the manager informs the employee that he should go back to work or face discipline . {sent} what kind of work situation is that ? {sent} this is the kind of condition which should not be left to chance or whim . {sent} all of us , as well-meaning employers , are working under pressure and perhaps our own needs come before those of the employees . {sent} let us return to bill c-45 which is before us . {sent} there are many problems with it , and that is why we do not support it . {sent} we support negotiated collective bargaining rights for employees . {sent} government members may not realize how ineffective bill c-45 is . {sent} many important concerns are not open for negotiation . {sent} they are not on the table at all . {sent} i should like to refer to some examples of this . {sent} bill c-45 prevents any real negotiation of the classification of positions and assignment of duties . {sent} limits are set on what grievances can go to third party arbitration . {sent} union grievances are not allowed . {sent} what kind of collective bargaining are we talking about if union grievances are not allowed ? {sent} the staff of members of parliament are excluded from the right to collective bargaining , a great omission . {sent} also the right to strike is prohibited . {sent} i heard my colleague speak about essential services . {sent} in any collective bargaining negotiation there is a definition of essential services as a part of the negotiations between employers and employees . {sent} it would be worked out as part of the collective bargaining procedure if it were a sound procedure , and the bill does not offer it . {sent} certification procedures require that all the union cards which have been signed on parliament hill be re-signed . {sent} this eliminates the kinds of negotiations and certifications under the canada labour code which have already gone forward . {sent} we are very disappointed that they have not been implemented . {sent} i should like to elaborate quickly and for the record on some of the negative points in the bill . {sent} first , classification under the bill would prevent any negotiation on problems related to job descriptions , assignment of pay level and evaluation of duties . {sent} the present situation as far as classifications are concerned has evolved over the years , taking into account special characteristics peculiar to the environment of parliament hill . {sent} i understand that it is the source of a great deal of employee dissatisfaction . {sent} as an employer i like to have a collective job classification system in my office , and the criteria set down by the house make it very difficult to have everyone at an equal level of pay . {sent} many employees do not have job descriptions at all . {sent} those employees who have them discover that they are out of date and frequently and arbitrarily changed in an environment which has seen extensive reorganization and technological change introduced . {sent} the result is that employees on the whole are frustrated and insecure , and there is a low level of morale . {sent} improper classification can also result in significant financial losses for employees . {sent} the lack of proper job descriptions hampers efficient operation of the workplace . {sent} under the canada labour code , classification can be negotiated and has been successfully negotiated in many workplaces . {sent} we should have the same situation on the hill . {sent} there should be at least a minimum requirement for acceptable legislation , and it is not covered effectively by bill c-45 . {sent} we know that parliament hill has a history of staffing decisions which are coloured by political influence , favouritism , nepotism and even administrative incompetence . {sent} parliamentary employees want to have a say in establishing a fair and equitable staffing system based upon merit , length of experience and service . {sent} if certified under the canada labour code , employees would have the right to negotiate both staffing and classification . {sent} as it stands bill c-45 is inferior to the canada labour code and to the public service staff relations act . {sent} the whole question of grievances is a very important right of employees , especially in this kind of situation and in view of our traditions on parliament hill . {sent} bill c-45 does not allow workplace problems to be addressed by union grievances , grievances filed by a group of workers . {sent} for example , there are health and safety problems in the print-shop and cafeterias . {sent} i remember several years ago hearing complaints about this . {sent} here it is coming up again , particularly about air quality and other environmental problems in the wellington building . {sent} these cannot be subject to a union grievance . {sent} what are workers supposed to do , mr. speaker ? {sent} they have been putting up with bad air for years . {sent} technological change also brings in very negative kinds of habits that are environmental situations , and these cannot be contested by filing a union grievance under this bill . {sent} what use is the bill if that is the case ? {sent} if an item cannot be brought to third party adjudication , the employer is under no requirements to take it seriously . {sent} it remains an in-house issue . {sent} for example , a poor performance appraisal , demotion or transfer cannot go to adjudication . {sent} a grievance cannot go to adjudication . {sent} again , it shows the weakness of this bill . {sent} what about the right to strike ? {sent} i know this is a very controversial issue in the minds of some members of parliament . {sent} i know that parliamentary employees do not want to go on strike , few workers ever do . {sent} this is only a final resort used by workers when all else fails . {sent} nevertheless , it is a fundamental union right that workers must be able to negotiate on an equitable basis with an employer by having the right to withdraw their services . {sent} within this are certain essential services that are defined and agreed to by both employees and employers . {sent} without the right to strike , the impetus for failing negotiated settlements is lost . {sent} if there were terrible working conditions that could not be negotiated by any other means , i would be proud of my employees if they went out on strike . {sent} this brings me to the crossing of picket lines . {sent} i , for one , would not cross a picket line . {sent} in other unionized legislatures , such as queen 's park , quebec city , westminster and australia , the right to strike has not interfered with the workings of parliament . {sent} i was interested to learn that those parliaments have a collective bargaining right to strike . {sent} another concern about this bill has to do with other staff . {sent} as we said earlier , this section of the bill excludes the 1,200 employees of members of parliament , leaders' staff and research staff from collective bargaining provisions . {sent} i cannot understand at all why this is necessary . {sent} i think most of us are very concerned about the inequities from one office to another that affect staffs of members of parliament . {sent} there are different working hours and hiring conditions . {sent} there are different rates of pay for the same jobs and so on . {sent} all workers on the hill should have the same right to collective bargaining . {sent} they should choose to exercise it as other canadian workers have these rights . {sent} it is argued that bill c-45 will cover members' staffs by certain parts of the canada labour code . {sent} however , this coverage provides only very minimum standards . {sent} we have concerns about that . {sent} i think you are aware , mr. speaker , that we in the new democratic caucus have had a collective agreement with our own staffs since 1977 . {sent} this agreement has been negotiated three times since then . {sent} our contract sets standards for working conditions for employees who are hired by our caucus . {sent} however , we cannot negotiate wages with our staffs because employers , members of parliament , do not have control over their budgets . {sent} the house of commons has control . {sent} although we support this organization and negotiate officially and sign agreements with our organization which is called pass , it is not the answer . {sent} it does provide grievance procedures which include appeals of difficult problems for third party arbitration . {sent} it also provides agreed procedures for staffing of vacant positions , technological change , respect for overtime hours and standards for vacations , education and travel . {sent} these are very important questions . {sent} again , i do not want to say that we cannot have a real collective bargaining agreement with our staff until this is recognized under law and under the canada labour code . {sent} bill c-45 will not help us in that regard . {sent} in fact , it will be a regressive step for our staff because our staff would not be included under this bill . {sent} there are many other things i would like to raise , mr. speaker , but my time is up and i know my colleagues will be presenting other arguments . {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , i won't take up much of the time of the house because i know all parties want this bill to proceed . {sent} has she had an opportunity to discuss her concerns with the member or members of her party who sat on that committee ? {sent} ms. mitchell : it is my understanding , mr. speaker , that members of our caucus never agreed that the bill was satisfactory . {sent} i think i have already elaborated on the reasons . {sent} there are many more . {sent} the bill is weak in many regards and there is no way our caucus would agree to it . {sent} i do not know the exact history to which the hon. member referred . {sent} perhaps we can get one of our members to elaborate but i know we are unanimous in opposing this bill . {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , rather than precipitate any further disagreement in the new democratic party i will not pursue that line of questioning any further . {sent} i must admit to the house that i could not find it . {sent} it is possibly what we do here . {sent} i did find in section 79 of the public service staff relations act a designated employee as one : {sent} i think it was related through certain experiments done in laboratories and in certain other instances where one would require the people who look after these labs or essential services to be designated . {sent} i want to ask the hon. member for vancouver east ( ms. mitchell ) a question because it is important for me to understand where the member stands . {sent} i am thinking of the security guards , for example , or for that matter anybody related to the maintenance of this place . {sent} would the member cross a picket line if the front of this building were picketed ? {sent} i would like to know what she would do in that instance . {sent} ms. mitchell : mr. speaker , i am very pleased to answer that question . {sent} i certainly would not cross a picket line . {sent} it is very important to recognize the rights of workers . {sent} with regard to strikes , it seems to me that in the past members of parliament have shown the right to strike . {sent} i am thinking of a number of occasions when this house has been closed down . {sent} i do not know that canada suffered too much during those incidents . {sent} in any collective bargaining agreement , part of the negotiations are to clarify essential services . {sent} unions are very understanding of what these essential services are and make arrangements for the workers to continue providing those services . {sent} adjournment debate {sent} proceedings on adjournment motion {sent} government orders {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} measure to enact {sent} he spent about two years working four or five evenings a week on the campaign . {sent} he then took a leave of absence without pay to work full time in the organizing effort . {sent} we believe that this bill is aimed at restricting the collective bargaining rights of these employees , the rights which they would have had under he provisions of the canada labour relations code . {sent} let us look at the provisions of this bill . {sent} employees of members of parliament and the leaders of the parties , and research staffs of the parties are excluded from some clauses of the bill . {sent} another clause prevents any negotiation on classification issues . {sent} there would be no negotiations , under the provisions of this bill , for questions of job description , assignment of pay levels , or change in duties . {sent} the present system of classification would be left unchanged . {sent} this system is totally unacceptable and is the cause of much employee dissatisfaction . {sent} under another clause no arbitral award can deal with appointments , appraisals , promotions , demotions , transfers , lay-offs , and releases . {sent} this is similar to the public service staff relations act , but other public service employees have rights under the public service employment act , which this bill does not provide for employees on the hill . {sent} another section restricts the right of grievance to the individual employee . {sent} workplace problems cannot be addressed by union grievances , grievances filed on behalf of a group of workers . {sent} there is one other important matter which is completely overlooked , and that is the whole question of technological change . {sent} any member of parliament who has been here for any length of time knows how rapidly and fundamentally the operations of their offices have changed in recent years . {sent} technological change is occurring on the hill as it is everywhere else . {sent} even employees with many years of experience fear they will be laid off . {sent} rather than allay these fears , management has fueled them with major reorganizations and cut-backs in several areas . {sent} i do not want to criticize anyone presently or formerly in management , but i am sure that members know that many of the decisions made in recent years had adverse effects on many of our employees . {sent} an older female employee with close to 20 years seniority in a position injured her back and was off on long-term disability for a couple of months . {sent} when she returned , she was assigned duties which included heavy lifting and carrying , although her old position still existed . {sent} she was told she should apply for early retirement if she was not satisfied . {sent} her grievance under the present procedure was denied . {sent} that could never have happened if that employee had belonged to a union which had the right to real collective bargaining . {sent} as a second example , a technician was hired for a position and was paid below the advertised salary level . {sent} it took the individual a year and a half to reach the salary level advertised in the competition . {sent} a year later another technician was hired with the same qualifications and started at the posted level immediately . {sent} i suppose the new employee was a friend of the supervisor . {sent} that would never happen if there was a real union . {sent} here is another one ; employees in a technical service are required to attend training courses on their days off and on weekends without pay . {sent} when these employees protested , they were told it was mandatory and they had no choice . {sent} in what other area would this be permitted ? {sent} no area where there is a union . {sent} these are the reasons workers join unions . {sent} the employees of the restaurant and cafeterias have to suffer because , supposedly , we have to save money . {sent} all employees have been informed they can be assigned any duties , although many have held specialized positions for a number of years . {sent} this is the kind of thing that is completely unreasonable and unacceptable . {sent} two butchers have been assigned to drive food delivery trucks , and a pastry chef was assigned to washing and cutting vegetables . {sent} is it surprising that the level of frustration in the cafeteria service is very high ? {sent} i ask members who have doubts that this is happening to talk to the people in the restaurant and cafeteria business whom they know . {sent} in a support service a female employee was the object of sexual harassment . {sent} her manager touched her , leaned up behind her and rubbed against her . {sent} when she protested , she was assigned to a heavier work load and later given a poor performance evaluation , and finally transferred to another position . {sent} we have just been discussing and debating employer equity legislation . {sent} it is ludicrous to be discussing that kind of legislation and listening to all the wonderful speeches in theory , which we have heard from the government side when this kind of thing happens . {sent} in the cafeteria service an employee cut his hand on the job . {sent} he was told to visit the nurse . {sent} the nurse told him it was not safe to work and that he should go home . {sent} the manager informed the employee he should go back to work or face discipline . {sent} in a technical service a senior position became vacant . {sent} several employees inquired about a competition , but none was held . {sent} the husband of a manager in another department of the same service was brought in to fill the position on a temporary basis . {sent} several months later a competition was announced . {sent} the now experienced husband was , of course , hired permanently as he now had the experience . {sent} the appeal of the employees in the service was denied . {sent} that reminds me of the kind of thing that went on in the packing plants in winnipeg 40 years ago . {sent} that kind of thing has not happened in employment areas for many , many years where unions have had the right to bargain collectively for their workers . {sent} it is a disgrace that the kinds of illustrations i have put on the record today should continue in the parliament of canada in the year 1986 . {sent} this bill is so deficient that it does not provide adequate means for the people who work on parliament hill to lodge grievances which can be dealt with equitably . {sent} when i say , " being dealt with equitably " i mean that they can be discussed openly , honestly and fairly between the employee and employer . {sent} i do not say that the employees are always right . {sent} we all know that employees are like any other human beings , sometimes subject to doing the wrong thing . {sent} usually they arrive at a settlement which is acceptable to both sides . {sent} if they do not , that dispute can go to an impartial arbitrator who would hear the case as presented by both sides and render a judgment . {sent} that is not provided for in this legislation . {sent} none of these benefits are provided for these temporary employees who are being found on the hill and in government departments more and more . {sent} all of these questions need to be dealt with in a fair and equitable way . {sent} because this bill is so deficient in meeting the needs of workers who work on parliament hill , i and my colleagues in the new democratic party intend to vote against this it . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions or comments ? {sent} is the hon. member rising on a point of order ? {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , we are awaiting a document which will be tabled under the house order which was passed earlier this day , and i think if we could perhaps proceed to the next speaker -- {sent} are there any questions or comments ? {sent} mr. boudria : i have a short question i would like to put to the hon. member for winnipeg north ( mr. orlikow ) . {sent} he has been a member of this chamber for a very long time , as we all know . {sent} he has had the opportunity to meet with and speak to employees for many years . {sent} as history sometimes works , the tables have turned and i find today many employees coming to my office for the same reasons . {sent} the hon. member for lanark -- renfrew -- carleton ( mr. dick ) , with his usual wisdom , has said : " perhaps they are very hard up " . {sent} they 're not that hard up because they would have gone to see him . {sent} then again , they probably would not because the service they would get would not be very good . {sent} through that mechanism , and through the good offices of the speaker and others , there was at least a form of redress . {sent} now , with the administration of the house fully structured and the employees' rights being unstructured , if the hon. member follows my line of thought , there seems to be a tremendous imbalance . {sent} on the management side everything is formalized , but there is very little of this on the employee side . {sent} that has , in my view , and i would like the hon. member to comment , created a situation where the employee is totally frustrated when it comes time to try to grieve an injustice . {sent} of course , the employee is equally frustrated in attempting to get redress for that kind of situation . {sent} mr. orlikow : mr. speaker , if the hon. member is asking me whether the present system does not work very well , i agree with him . {sent} we have supposedly a very structured , trained and efficient management staff with great power , indeed too much power , to deal with the individual complaints of employees . {sent} if , on the other hand , he suggests that the situation was better years ago , i cannot agree with him . {sent} i can remember that when i first came here , outside the office door of one of the liberal members from ottawa there could be found about 25 chairs sitting in the hall . {sent} that was a very bad system of patronage which i think , fortunately , is long gone . {sent} mr. dick : you are talking about boudria . {sent} mr. orlikow : yes , i am talking about those guys . {sent} mr. dick : that is how he got hired . {sent} mr. boudria : put that on the record . {sent} mr. dick : probably ? {sent} you do not know . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions or comments . {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , i will try to ignore the subsequent ignorant interruption of the hon. member for lanark -- renfrew -- carleton and go back -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} mr. gauthier : well , it is true . {sent} mr. boudria : well , it was ! {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i really do not care whether or not it was . {sent} the question should be directed to the hon. member who has just finished speaking . {sent} i hope the hon. member will direct his comments to the hon. member for winnipeg north ( mr. orlikow ) . {sent} i hope that the hon. member for -- {sent} mr. dick : i did not say a thing until he -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i would hope that the hon. member will not interject . {sent} we are waiting for a statement from the hon. minister and you are causing me a lot of grief . {sent} mr. gauthier : you never say anything , paul . {sent} mr. dick : it is true . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , the hon. member for winnipeg north is well versed in the situation involving employees of this house . {sent} i do not like the kind of system he has described either . {sent} however , what we are talking about is the employees' grievances . {sent} over the years , and even today , in the absence of any formal structure , employees on many occasions present their grievances to members of this house in an attempt to obtain redress . {sent} as the hon. member has appropriately described , there have been a large number of such injustices in the past , and he has described some of them . {sent} later on in my remarks i intend to spend some time describing some of them as well . {sent} i see a deterioration in the morale of employees from what it was a year and a half ago when i came back to this building , compared to what it was during the 1960s and 1970s . {sent} then there was at least a system , although informal and improperly structured and not the best , where employees could attempt to obtain redress . {sent} that is not the case now . {sent} that is really what i was questioning , not the hiring practices , because of course they are indefensible . {sent} mr. orlikow : mr. speaker , let me just reply very briefly by saying to the hon. member that there will be problems as long as the system of grievances is informal and not based on a precise set of rules and regulations . {sent} if you do not have a system based on law and procedures which are clearly outlined in advance , there will be a great deal of dissatisfaction with the decisions made . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the period for questions and comments has now expired . {sent} pursuant to an order made earlier this day , the house will now revert to tabling of documents . {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} routine proceedings {sent} financial institutions {sent} tabling of correspondence respecting imasco bid to take over genstar {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the house will now proceed to statements by ministers . {sent} - statements by ministers {sent} financial institutions {sent} imasco bid to take over genstar -- government position {sent} the issues which have been raised are important and i commend hon. members for their concern . {sent} the government 's responsibility is to protect the public interest in the financial sector . {sent} i know that hon. members share that concern . {sent} that is why i proposed , and the government is carrying forward , a comprehensive review of financial institution regulation . {sent} that is why public notice of impending legislation , which is now before this house as bill c-103 , was given last november 29 . {sent} the house is well aware that regulatory efforts to protect the public interest and preserve financial stability in the financial sector raise complex and challenging issues . {sent} as part of this review , i asked imasco for very specific undertakings . {sent} i am pleased to inform the house that imasco has met the government 's requirement for strong and clear undertakings to protect the public interest in the spirit of bill c-103 . {sent} canada trustco 's board of directors and management will be independent from imasco and its affiliates and associates . {sent} imasco will not acquire control of any other financial service corporations . {sent} i therefore urge all present and future members of that sector to make a careful examination of bill c-103 and the imasco commitment . {sent} the fundamental importance of our financial institutions to canadians , and to the growth and stability of the economy , will always impose special obligations on those who participate in this industry . {sent} i recognize also the government 's obligation to put in place a new framework for regulation of the financial sector . {sent} we are doing just that . {sent} the report of the estey commission and the senate banking committee 's recommendations on the green paper proposals for financial institutions regulatory policy will all be part of that process . {sent} i am not prepared to force the process to a premature end . {sent} as other observers have noted , the issues are too fundamental , too complex and the financial sector too important to be decided in a matter of days over one specific case . {sent} before closing i want to deal briefly with the issue of corporate concentration which hon. members of the house have raised in relation to the imasco-genstar situation . {sent} corporate concentration is a very broad issue which encompasses many sectors of the economy , not just the financial sector . {sent} the debate on this broad issue cannot be resolved in the context of the financial industry alone and certainly not on the basis of this one particular situation . {sent} with the assistance of hon. members and with the co-operation of imasco , the specific situation which raised concerns in this house is under careful control and review . {sent} the public interest is being protected and will be in the critical areas i have noted . {sent} i look forward to receiving in future , as i have in the past , the thoughtful assistance of hon. members in this important area of government policy and regulatory reform . {sent} miss aideen nicholson ( trinity ) : mr. speaker , i want to thank the minister for her courtesy in supplying a copy of her statement in advance . {sent} most hon. members of this house are concerned that a takeover by a non-financial institution of a financial institution is not in the best interests of our country . {sent} that position was stated by the leader of my party in this house when he pointed out some of the reasons why people are generally concerned . {sent} he said at page 12051 of hansard on april 9 , and i quote : {sent} a financial institution so controlled can block or divert loans from competitors or to competitive allies . {sent} it can control cash flow . {sent} there is the temptation for self-dealing that was only too apparent during the crisis three years ago in ontario involving greymac and other trust companies . {sent} -- the interests of the depositors are not necessarily going to be paramount where there is a conflict of interest in holding and where the shareholders in their correlated and blended interests will take precedence over the depositors . {sent} these were some of the concerns which were addressed by the committee on finance when it was studying the green paper on regulation of financial institutions last fall . {sent} the report of the committee on finance included this sentence , and i quote : {sent} the committee is concerned about the increasing trend towards non-financial ownership of financial institutions and feels that concentrated ownership , particularly that of large financial institutions , should be limited . {sent} the canadian bankers association stated to the committee : {sent} -- this co-mingling of non-financial and financial businesses is undesirable . {sent} it would try the confidence and trust that canadians place in their financial system . {sent} the liberal members of the finance committee issued a separate report in which we stated : " ... we do not believe that financial activities and non-financial activities should be combined " . {sent} however , the government chose not to act on that recommendation . {sent} of course , the decision to allow that merger contributed directly to the situation which we have before us today . {sent} genstar corporation owned canada permanent trust . {sent} it then acquired canada trust against the finance committee 's recommendation , giving it canada 's biggest trust company . {sent} that is the main reason for imasco 's interest in this takeover . {sent} the minister properly says in her statement that the government 's responsibility is to protect the public interest in the financial sector . {sent} in effect , the minister has now chosen to move to protect that interest by requiring certain commitments of imasco rather than by blocking the merger . {sent} the government really had no choice in this matter . {sent} since the genstar takeover was not blocked it would be illogical now to block the imasco one . {sent} the precautions against self-dealing required by the minister , and on which she has reached agreement , are reasonable . {sent} there is to be no self-dealing and no interlocking boards . {sent} imasco undertakes not to acquire control of any other financial service corporations . {sent} since imasco has a very good reputation , this type of agreement which used to be called a " gentleman 's agreement " will probably work very well in this case . {sent} but we are still left with the fact that the government has not yet produced an ownership policy . {sent} bill c-103 , to which the minister referred in her statement , leaves a tremendous amount of power to ministerial discretion . {sent} in the public interest , the minister can block certain transactions or require divesting . {sent} but the conditions are not spelled out . {sent} bill c-103 will have to be amended . {sent} there will have to be a great many amendments made to it in order to put some clear conditions in place . {sent} the end result is that imasco has undertaken to acknowledge the powers of bill c-103 without knowing what these powers will be and without knowing what type of divestiture may be required in future legislation . {sent} the minister says that she recognizes the government 's obligation to put in place a new framework for regulation of the financial sector . {sent} however , the government has moved slowly in that respect . {sent} i would remind the house that prior to 1984 the previous minister of state for finance put in place a consultation system on which the present minister poured scorn when she took office . {sent} thus she decided to rediscover the wheel . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret to interrupt the hon. member but her time has expired . {sent} each party had seven minutes in which to reply . {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , i am sure hon. members would be prepared to grant to the hon. member for trinity ( miss nicholson ) whatever time is necessary for her to complete her response . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is it agreed ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member for trinity ( miss nicholson ) . {sent} i will finish my remarks quickly . {sent} while the minister points out risks in forcing the process to a premature end , i do not think this is the risk we are facing . {sent} the risk is in not acting firmly enough since the rate of takeovers has been escalating in recent years . {sent} indeed , as one of the minister 's own colleagues said , we are faced with a situation of trying to unscramble eggs or trying to get the toothpaste back into the tube . {sent} it is important to get bill c-103 in place , with some amendments . {sent} it is also important to move on establishing a clear ownership policy , not only so that imasco will know where it is at but so that all canadians will know where they stand . {sent} i particularly wish to emphasize that legislation which relies so much on ministerial discretion will need to be replaced by legislation with clear standards . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member for kamloops -- shuswap ( mr. riis ) . {sent} they want to own their own major financial institution , to buy the money power against the security of the depositors , and , really , the people of canada . {sent} today , the minister of state for finance ( mrs. mcdougall ) has announced the winner of that contest . {sent} it is , of course , the large conglomerates which are now being given the go-ahead to purchase their own bank . {sent} they are being given the go-ahead to go out and purchase their own trust company . {sent} when the minister was forced to make a decision between the giant corporation , imasco , and the security of the depositors of canada trust , she said she would give the benefit of the doubt to imasco . {sent} it is a serious situation which occurred in the last few moments . {sent} it was the unanimous decision of the finance committee , not on one occasion but on two , after months of deliberation and thought , to recommend that the minister not approve the go-ahead of this takeover . {sent} she has ignored that advice . {sent} she has disregarded it completely . {sent} she has shown no respect for the work , advice and thought which every single member of the finance committee put into making that recommendation . {sent} yesterday in the house of commons the opportunity was provided to any member to speak in favour of the action which the minister has just taken . {sent} not one single member rose to speak in its favour . {sent} in other words , the best information we have is that every member of parliament feels that the decision which the minister took today is wrong . {sent} through their elected representatives they have said that this is not in the best interests of canada . {sent} in effect , they have said that this is not in the best interests of the canadian economy . {sent} the minister has chosen to ignore that advice . {sent} presumably this has been done in the context of the new parliamentary reform . {sent} back-benchers and committees were to be given more consideration . {sent} presumably more attention was to be given to the house of commons . {sent} the minister of state for finance has now indicated that she will ignore that advice , even when it is unanimous , time after time . {sent} i suspect that the chairman of the finance committee , who has gone on record very clearly along with the rest of his colleagues , will have virtually no choice but to resign as chairman of that committee . {sent} there have been seven months of deliberations and literally dozens and dozens of experts have appeared before the committee . {sent} every one of the experts has said the same thing , with the exception of a handful of people and that handful of people are those representatives of the big seven families that control more than 50 per cent of the toronto stock exchange . {sent} they like this decision . {sent} what the minister of state for finance has said to justify her actions is unbelievable . {sent} she has said that imasco promises that there will be no self-dealing . {sent} well , big bloody deal . {sent} imasco is saying that it will do what we expect every single corporation to do by law . {sent} on monday night , the finance committee will be exposing a number of those actions that have not been exposed to date . {sent} the minister of state for finance went on to say that imasco will not acquire control of any other financial service corporation . {sent} it now owns a financial institution that brags in full-page advertisements in canada 's major newspapers that it is larger than some of the big banks . {sent} imasco promises that it will not buy another major trust company or financial institution . {sent} big deal . {sent} the minister went on to say that bill c-103 will include the power to roll back this takeover . {sent} it is a little late , is it not , mr. speaker ? {sent} who believes that we are going to ask this company to change its mind after the takeover has occurred and the shares have been acquired , something which i understand was completed today ? {sent} one could be cynical and say that the major political contributions imasco made to the conservative party in 1984 have now paid off . {sent} one could say that imasco is now seeing the fruits of those thousands and thousands of dollars of campaign contributions . {sent} that is not the way decision making should take place in canada . {sent} the minister of state for finance should have listened to the unanimous voice of the finance committee after its deliberations . {sent} she should have listened to the unanimous voice of the house of commons after its deliberations . {sent} she should have listened to the people with financial expertise who came before the standing committee on finance , trade and economic affairs to tell us not to do this . {sent} she should have listened to the superintendent of insurance who said that he could not find any compelling reason to show that this takeover would be in the best interests of canada . {sent} to whom did the minister listen ? {sent} where did she get her advice ? {sent} i can only say now that members of the finance committee , and particularly those who belong to the government party , are going to have to do some soul searching . {sent} after all , they worked hard , and i will give them credit for this , to try to bring sanity into this decision-making process . {sent} the minister has ignored them . {sent} it is a very , very sad day for canada and for canadians . {sent} privilege -- mr. boudria {sent} privilege {sent} allegation of patronage {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , i wish to rise on a question of privilege . {sent} those motives that have been imputed are totally false , as you of course know , and as i am sure the hon. member knows deep down in his heart . {sent} i would ask that the statement be withdrawn and , in the absence of that , i would wish to move the necessary motion to which i referred a while ago . {sent} mr. dick : mr. speaker -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member for lanark -- renfrew-carleton ( mr. dick ) will be given his opportunity , but i just want to say something . {sent} the hon. member for glengarry -- prescott -- russell ( mr. boudria ) has just made reference to something which did not arise from the debate occurring at this particular time . {sent} if he does feel that he has a prima facie case of privilege , then he should give the proper notice and it should be dealt with tomorrow . {sent} i am afraid that i cannot accept it at this time and therefore we should go on to orders of the day . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , on that same question of privilege , the house interrupted its normal business to go to a statement by a minister by unanimous agreement . {sent} the hon. member for glengarry -- prescott -- russell ( mr. boudria ) wanted to raise this point at that time . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i hope that the hon. member will give notice in writing so that we can go ahead and deal with it accordingly . {sent} order , please . {sent} i wish to inform the house that because of the ministerial statement and pursuant to order made earlier this day , this sitting will be extended by 25 minutes . {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} government orders {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} measure to enact {sent} how could i forget that ? {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , inadvertently you were quite correct . {sent} the ottawa area is part of my riding . {sent} i represent the counties of glengarry , prescott and russell as well as that part of ottawa-carleton called the township of cumberland . {sent} unbeknownst to you , mr. speaker , you were quite correct in calling me the hon. member for ottawa , as i do represent at least a small part of the ottawa-carleton region . {sent} mr. gauthier : we 're very proud of you . {sent} mr. boudria : thank you . {sent} i am pleased to participate in this debate on bill c-45 this afternoon . {sent} the board decided in its wisdom that the employees of the house had collective rights under the canada labour code . {sent} of course that has been dragged through various steps of the court process . {sent} as far as i know , on every occasion the courts and the board dealt with this topic , adjudication has always been on the side of the employees . {sent} negotiations are scheduled to proceed on monday , april 21 or some four days from now . {sent} why are we attempting to sneak through the legislation at this time ? {sent} why do we want to do it now ? {sent} why can we not wait until the process is finished and final judgments come down on the issue ? {sent} why would hon. members of the house want to pass this piece of legislation now ? {sent} what is the need to pass it now ? {sent} are we collectively afraid of what eventually will come out of the court decision ? {sent} if that is not the case , and since we have not had such legislation since 1867 , why do we need to pass it before next monday at which time the negotiations will get under way ? {sent} the hon. member for hamilton east ( ms. copps ) moved a very appropriate amendment to delay the bill for six months . {sent} at that time we did not know some of the things we know now . {sent} however , she was right . {sent} we had to delay discussion on the bill for six months in order to provide the time required for the process which i described just a few moments ago . {sent} mr. speaker , why do the employees of the house want a union ? {sent} right now they are not allowed to do that . {sent} and why ? {sent} today , this balance no longer exists . {sent} and i think it is this imbalance which has created a situation where morale among house employees is extremely low . {sent} parliamentary employees feel totally frustrated because they have no way of defending their individual and collective rights . {sent} i listened carefully to the speech made by the hon. member for winnipeg-north , when he was describing the cases of certain parliamentary employees , with their grievances and their problems . {sent} in each case , i could recognize who the person was . {sent} i could even name them each and every one of them . {sent} in many cases , i could even give the names of family members , because i know nearly all of them . {sent} however , mr. speaker , i would not want any employer to emulate the procedures existing today on parliament hill . {sent} i certainly would not want anyone to use our procedures as a model . {sent} the way we treat our employees should be an example to everyone else in the public and private sectors . {sent} however , it is not an example of which we can be proud . {sent} why is that so ? {sent} it is so because principally we as members collectively fear , whether or not we admit it , unions on parliament hill . {sent} perhaps there is a fear that the day will come when one of us will have to cross a picket line in order to come to the chamber and do his job on behalf of our constituents . {sent} perhaps it is a morbid fear of the picket line which has stopped us from granting our employees collective rights . {sent} if that is so , is it a good enough reason to deny someone their rights ? {sent} potentially we could put ourselves in a situation which could be viewed or seen as embarrassing . {sent} if that is our reason for failing to give our employees their rights , it is a pretty poor reason indeed . {sent} it is not one we would permit anyone else to use . {sent} if we would not permit anyone else to use the same criteria , why are we using them ourselves ? {sent} it is my hope that in a very few days we will see the final stages of that process in the courts that will give employees of this house the same rights and privileges as other canadians have . {sent} finally , i hope the day will come when we will have a system that can be used as an example , a system of which we can be proud . {sent} let us hope we can go to private enterprise or even other public sectors , the provinces , and tell them about our way , that we look after the people who work for us . {sent} that does not mean you hire five people to do the job of two , mr. speaker . {sent} that does not mean you let everybody go home at noon . {sent} that is not what the employees are asking for . {sent} they become friends of all of us and they consider members of this house who are collectively , and i suppose individually , their bosses and representatives . {sent} they have a special dedication . {sent} how many times do we see employees on the hill working well beyond the call of duty ? {sent} i know what time they start . {sent} many years ago i had the same working hours as some of them . {sent} i know they come way ahead of working hours and are here long after , in many cases without getting overtime or any other benefit . {sent} they are dedicated . {sent} they do a good job for each and every one of us , and they deserve to be treated properly by us all collectively and , needless to say , by all of us individually as well . {sent} it is my hope that we will delay this bill at least for a little while . {sent} there is no need to deal with it now . {sent} let the process take care of itself . {sent} in my view , within a very few days it will be determined that the rights of these employees go far beyond what is in bill c-45 . {sent} i hope the process will determine that their rights are the same as those of all public servants and all other canadians . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions and comments . {sent} the hon. member for lévis ( mr. fontaine ) . {sent} at the time his government did not even see fit to act upon the kind of recommendations and representations he is making today . {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , i am not quite sure i understand the meaning of the hon. member 's question . {sent} i do not quite follow the logic of what the hon. member is telling us . {sent} he should know that not very long ago the canadian labour commission ruled on this case and that the matter is now before the courts . {sent} it was not the case a number of years ago , but it is now . {sent} mr. althouse : the hon. member has had experience as an employee on the hill . {sent} would he comment on the progress which employees of the hill made , during his sojourn in toronto as an m.p.p. , toward organizing into an association ? {sent} as the member said , they have applied to the canada labour relations board and seem to be making slow but positive progress in that direction . {sent} could the member comment on some of the advantages employees would have under the canada labour code as opposed to those they would have under bill c-45 ? {sent} the hon. member and the member for winnipeg north ( mr. orlikow ) gave examples of incidents involving people working on the hill . {sent} would it be possible for some of those situations to be dealt with under the provisions of bill c-45 , or would the powers of the organization to represent them be somewhat limited under this bill ? {sent} they would not , however , have identical benefits , which is what i believe the member wants me to point out . {sent} if anyone is making the case that this bill offers many benefits similar to those offered by the canada labour code , one must ask why we are bothering with the bill at all . {sent} i think i am being generous in using the words " not much " . {sent} the process which now exists is more of a hit-and-miss one . {sent} in my view , house employees should be accorded the right to strike , although not in all cases . {sent} obviously , some people must be designated " essential " . {sent} most of the people in the house at the present time would have to be so designated . {sent} however , i would argue that we do not need a full complement of busboys so designated . {sent} i can relate to that job very easily because i happen to have done it in 1966 . {sent} they may be essential to achieving a certain level of comfort for the parliamentarians , but that is not the same as being essential for the functioning of parliament . {sent} i am sure you have recognized already , mr. speaker , that a large number of our employees should be given full bargaining rights . {sent} at this point we do not even know whether they want all of these rights , and that is for them to decide collectively . {sent} however , apart from those people who would necessarily be designated essential , the rest of them should be afforded the full rights which they would receive under the canada labour code . {sent} mr. althouse : the member has served for some time in the provincial parliament at queen 's park in toronto where employees do have some bargaining rights . {sent} did he experience any problems in carrying out his duties as a member of the provincial parliament because employees at queen 's park have more bargaining rights than they have here in ottawa ? {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , not all of them do . {sent} it is pretty confusing to try to compare the two situations . {sent} the legislative assembly building at queen 's park is partially under the jurisdiction of the speaker of the assembly and partly under the jurisdiction of the minister of government services . {sent} it would be rather difficult to draw a parallel between the two legislatures . {sent} there are a large number of people in the building who are employees of other government departments or agencies , which adds to the confusion . {sent} i know that the employees of the ndp caucus at queen 's park have a method of airing their grievances . {sent} i am not sure whether that is a formal union , or only an association of employees . {sent} not having been a member of that particular caucus , i did not take much time to inquire about how it operates . {sent} however , there are a large number of staff members in the legislative assembly building at queen 's park who are unionized . {sent} as a matter of fact , there are a number of employees on the hill in that situation as well . {sent} people working outside of the buildings , but within the precincts of parliament hill , are unionized . {sent} they have not turned the world upside down because of it , nor did they at queen 's park . {sent} in direct response to the member 's question , i never perceived that to be a problem while i was at queen 's park . {sent} mr. vic althouse ( humboldt -- lake centre ) : mr. speaker , i rise to join the debate on bill c-45 . {sent} our party has been opposing the move by the govenment to change the law as it applies to the collective bargaining rights of people who work on parliament hill . {sent} for that reason it is probably suitable that this particular debate occurs on equality day . {sent} it is a time when we are trying to extend rights of canadian citizens equally to all . {sent} prior to coming to parliament i was a representative of one group which was largely ignored when it comes to legislation permitting them to organize , and that is , the farming sector . {sent} i have always been quite interested in the application of these rights on an equitable basis to all sectors of our society . {sent} this bill is unfortunate in that it comes at a time when many of the employees on the hill had gotten quite a way ahead through the long process of organizing themselves . {sent} they had even succeeded several months ago in obtaining the right to begin certification procedures under the canada labour code . {sent} there are five or six bargaining units here on the hill who are well on the way to getting into the negotiating process and moving towards having the first collective bargaining agreement for those particular groups on the hill . {sent} this process is an ongoing one , and it is always a slow process . {sent} it takes several years to go through all the organizational and legal and negotiating procedures to get a first contract . {sent} some first contracts take years and years and years , but they do eventually happen . {sent} it is extremely unfortunate that in the midst of these negotiations , which followed the organizational pursuit and the legal challenges that have gone on , the government should put on the order paper before the house of commons bill c-45 , which is a bill that has the effect of starting the process all over again . {sent} the rights and procedures they will follow under bill c-45 are such that they will gain fewer rather than more rights than what they would have under the canada labour code . {sent} it being equality day -- and i think every day in canada should be equality day -- we should , as a general principle , treat all of our citizens in the same manner . {sent} i think a lot of canadians have trouble with that concept , and that is why i think they would have trouble with bill c-45 if they read it and understood it better . {sent} i would hope that that is some indication that the government sees it as being not particularly necessary and it is only bringing it forward to interfere with the bargaining process that is now in place . {sent} i would hope that the only reason it was put before the house today was because it did not have any other pressing legislation . {sent} i would hope that that was the reason it was brought forward . {sent} i realize that sometimes governments do get to the point where their agenda is so clear they only bring in legislation that is peripheral to the needs of canadians . {sent} i would assume that today , on a thursday , is the kind of day that we happen to have hit . {sent} there has been some feeling left in the country , and i think there is a fair bit of feeling which exists on the government side of the house , that some of these jobs that are performed around parliament hill fall into the area of being designated as essential services . {sent} it is an important service and the job they do is important . {sent} the job that any one of us does as mp is also relatively important , but it is not essential . {sent} we have had , since this parliament began , two resignations from the house . {sent} the house functions just as well without those two , albeit both were extremely good and effective members , but the house is still functioning since they have left . {sent} the parliament in australia has similar legislation and it has no problem with it . {sent} i fail to understand how the argument can be made that canada could not function with this kind of labour legislation . {sent} i was here when the bells rang in this parliament for 14 or 15 days . {sent} it was not a disaster and the country still functioned . {sent} all of the departments of government still did their job . {sent} it did not precipitate a crisis , and we were out for 15 days . {sent} they include the people who work at the post office , and occasionally those workers do strike , and yet the country functions . {sent} if the strike weapon were available to parliament hill employees i think it would be used very seldom . {sent} we just had the opportunity to hear from a former hill employee recounting some of his experiences and some of the attitudes and opinions of people around the hill . {sent} when you listen to hill employees , it seems most of the problems and grievances that build up are due to the fact that there is no proper procedure for those employees to deal with their grievances . {sent} they have no place to go . {sent} that is why we have such instances as the following one . {sent} an older worker had hurt her back and was sent home . {sent} she was receiving benefits . {sent} her doctor told her he thought her back was well enough for her to go back to work , which meant that her benefits would cease . {sent} when she arrived at work here on the hill she was told that her employers did not think she was fit to work and they would not pay her . {sent} she is no longer eligible for benefits , no longer able to work , and she has no place else to go . {sent} there is no grievance procedure except for some member of parliament trying to catch the speaker 's attention and having him put some pressure on the people concerned . {sent} with an organization they will have a grievance procedure . {sent} they can use the combined weight of all employees to argue for a particular person . {sent} we know from listening to employees that there are discrepancies in the hiring practices and , because there is no grievance procedure , those discrepancies continue . {sent} we can then avoid the kind of things we have had brought to our attention , such as the case of a technician being hired for a position at below the advertised salary level . {sent} he worked for a year and a half to reach that salary level and finally did so . {sent} these kinds of discrepancies bother our employees . {sent} i think they bother all of us when we realize there is inequitable treatment with no visible reason for it . {sent} it makes little sense for us to be imposing more legislation regarding hiring practices and organizational structure for employees of parliament in the form of bill c-45 . {sent} we have seen the canada labour code being applied , and much effort has gone into organizing over the last three or four years . {sent} there have been court appeals . {sent} the legislative route is being followed , slowly but it is still being followed . {sent} it seems extremely unjust for us , particularly on equality day , to be imposing this much reduced form of rights on our employees when they are attempting to organize under the provisions of the canada labour code . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. schellenberg ) : questions or comments . {sent} it is also interesting that the government had five months to move on this legislation and it would have done so earlier if it had believed it was serious legislation . {sent} that is rather ironic because we are now in a situation where the government has not treated its own legislation seriously . {sent} can you imagine introducing legislation in the late fall of last year , bringing it forward for one or two days' debate , and then postponing further debate for a full four months ? {sent} yet that is what has happened . {sent} neither has the government been serious in its negotiations with its employees on the hill . {sent} it has used the courts to delay negotiating . {sent} yet the government has not shown the credibility involved in sitting down with its own workers to find out what kind of legislation would be acceptable . {sent} there is no question of the government 's right to introduce legislation which it thinks is necessary . {sent} there is no question that the government has a right to introduce its own legislation , based on a court decision , to change a process . {sent} what i find ironic is that the government has spent so much time in doing nothing that i wonder if the hon. member would care to communicate whether he feels the government is really negotiating in bad faith with its employees . {sent} mr. althouse : mr. speaker , on the face of it , it does seem the government is not serious about negotiating . {sent} this move to introduce bill c-45 was a legislative effort to back up the legal efforts in the courts . {sent} for that reason it probably would go some way to explaining why this legislation comes forward in fits and starts . {sent} i think it is somehow being used as part of the varied arsenal of the government in its fight against the application by five or six units to organize and get their first contract . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i listened with some attention to the hon. member 's remarks . {sent} he , like his colleagues in the ndp , has a definition of a designated employee . {sent} i want to know exactly where he stands on the question of essential employees . {sent} we could change all that and say : " the safety or security of parliament " . {sent} would he cross that picket line ? {sent} i would like to know the answer to that from his party . {sent} mr. althouse : mr. speaker , i have been involved in a few settlements of labour agreements . {sent} an hon. member : on whose side ? {sent} mr. althouse : on the management side . {sent} the question of whether or not i would cross a picket line would depend really on whether the legislation we are dealing with is of a very serious and necessary nature , and on the kind of picketing that is going on . {sent} a lot of the picketing on the hill , i foresee , will not be of a particularly crucial nature to the functioning of this house and this chamber . {sent} when it is a question of serving my constituents and there is no other way of doing that but by being in the house , then i suppose i would have no choice but to cross the picket line . {sent} i would attempt to explain my reason to the picketers . {sent} i am sure that once they understood the reason , they would agree that the parliamentary function is also necessary . {sent} i have had this happen on a number of occasions and usually such picketers are quite in accord with what you are doing once they understand why you are doing it . {sent} mr. gauthier : i appreciate the hon. member 's comments and point of view because i know how seriously he feels about the subject . {sent} the picket lines , as i understand , were originally organized for information purposes . {sent} they were originally thought up to inform the public that there was a conflict between the employee and the employers , between the democratic process and sometimes the aristocratic owners of an enterprise . {sent} that is a serious position and one which i respect , although one i do not necessarily share . {sent} mr. althouse : mr. speaker , i think i tried to make it fairly clear in my first answer that both would be at work . {sent} the legislation which is before the house rarely , but sometimes , does affect my constituents very clearly . {sent} on those occasions i would feel it would be my responsibility and , indeed , my duty to be in the house looking after them . {sent} i will reiterate something i said in my speech . {sent} it is not very often that this house has that kind of crucial legislation before it . {sent} i refer again to the 15 days when we listened to the bells and nothing fell apart . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the time for questions and comments has now terminated . {sent} both the public service alliance of canada and the national association of broadast employees and technicians are finding considerable difficulty with this proposal . {sent} we must consider that this bill will enshrine in law an employee employer relationship which does not meet with the employees' approval . {sent} the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) has stated to employee representatives that the government is willing to give parliamentary employees the same rights enjoyed by federal public servants . {sent} however , the legislation before us does not include one particular right enjoyed by federal public servants , and that is , the right to strike . {sent} we might all consider that there are good reasons why employees on the hill should not have the right to strike . {sent} but if that tool is removed from them , surely they must be compensated by having an extremely effective , strong and binding arbitration procedure in its place . {sent} that is not offered by bill c-45 . {sent} the history is that on november 4 , 1985 , the canada labour relations board announced its decision to certify four bargaining units in the house of commons and the library of parliament . {sent} i believe that since that time an additional unit has been certified . {sent} however , the house of commons , senate and library of parliament administration appealed the clrb 's decision to the federal court . {sent} the appeal was heard on january 20 and january 21 , 1986 , and a decision is expected within the next few days . {sent} in the interim , the request by the house of commons for a stay allowing the employer to avoid participating in the negotiations process was rejected by the court . {sent} their appeal concerning the canada labour relations board is still before the courts . {sent} surely it would make more sense to have the court decision first and then look again at what kind of legislation is needed . {sent} i certainly have a great deal of difficulty in understanding why we are proceeding with this legislation when the employees have said that it is not what they want . {sent} surely , good employer-employee relations require making a much more serious effort to find out what it is the employees want and then proceed on that basis . {sent} two clauses in bill c-45 , clause 5(3) and clause 55(2) , are being objected to . {sent} these two clauses would prohibit unions from referring to arbitration matters such as job classification , appointment , appraisal , promotion , demotion , transfer , lay-off and release of employees . {sent} these are matters which are really central to working conditions . {sent} i have great difficulty in understanding why they should be excluded from arbitration . {sent} federal public servants under the public service staff relations board also face limitations as to what can and cannot be taken to arbitration . {sent} however , the public service employment act also gives federal public servants rights with regard to some of these issues , rights which are not contained in the bill before us . {sent} that is not accurate . {sent} under the canada labour code , health and safety rights are already allowed . {sent} this is so as a result of bill c-24 , as my colleague , the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) , points out . {sent} the workers on parliament hill have asked that bill c-45 be delayed . {sent} they do not even want it to go to committee since that would bring it one step closer to enactment . {sent} the workers on the hill know how our system operates . {sent} there have been many times in the house when members on all sides have agreed to the principle of a bill which has very large flaws and have wanted the bill to go to committee , where amendments can be moved , so that it can be improved upon . {sent} the workers on the hill are very familiar with this procedure . {sent} this is really a serious situation . {sent} although negotiations with the union are being conducted by the administration of the house , every member has a vested interest in this matter . {sent} while we are not empowered to negotiate , in a sense we are the employers of these people . {sent} if they are not happy with this bill , then why on earth do we not just go back to the drawing-board and try to come up with something on which there can be agreement ? {sent} how did we ever get into this situation ? {sent} i am sure everyone would agree that the workers on the hill are entitled to some type of staff association , a union , we can call it what we will . {sent} they are entitled to some type of arrangement by which they can bargain and which will allow them a say in the conditions of their work . {sent} since everyone is agreed on that point , why on earth not take the next step and make more of an effort to ensure that what they are offered is what they want ? {sent} after all , one of the points in having a union is so that there is an organized framework for the resolution of disputes and so that there can be fairer labour practices which benefit both worker and employer . {sent} if we start off with a situation in which workers say they do not want this , then surely we are starting off on the wrong foot . {sent} surely , there is no way of rescuing this legislation . {sent} i strongly suggest that the government withdraw it and start some meaningful and time-limited negotiations with the employees in order to come up with something that is acceptable . {sent} after all , if people have something forced upon them , they will not use it productively . {sent} however , something which is agreed upon with good will between employer and employee is more likely to work and more likely to provide a sensible framework for the resolution of disputes . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : are there questions or comments ? {sent} the hon. member for churchill ( mr. murphy ) . {sent} miss nicholson ( trinity ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member is not correct in saying that the previous government did not act at all in this respect . {sent} it was the charter of rights and freedoms introduced by the previous government which was the basis for broadening access to collective bargaining . {sent} in fact , we had draft legislation . {sent} since it was not an area in which i was immediately involved , i cannot remember whether or not it was introduced in the house . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i am more than pleased to have listened to the remarks of my colleague , the hon. member for trinity ( miss nicholson ) . {sent} knowing her background , especially in social work , and knowing of her commitment to good employee relations , i was very impressed with her approach to the subject matter before us . {sent} in the name of all of us who have a deep interest in employer-employee relations , i wish to thank her for her remarks . {sent} i would like to ask her if she recognizes that the house of commons is an essential service and that as such we should designate certain services as essential to the safety and security of the operation of parliament . {sent} i believe she was in the house when i asked a question of the hon. member for humboldt -- lake centre ( mr. althouse ) . {sent} i asked him what he would do if the house of commons in its wisdom , and the employees in theirs , accepted to include the right to strike , as is the case with public servants . {sent} in my speech , i think i made it clear that the employees themselves have said that they could forgo that right if meaningful negotiations were forthcoming on binding , third-party arbitration . {sent} perhaps what i am putting forward is hypothetical . {sent} i prefaced my remarks by saying that i know the hon. member 's commitment to employer-employee relations , and i also understand how she has worked with people over the years . {sent} how would she feel if there was a strike and a picket line was set up on parliament hill ? {sent} i know the position of certain members of the ndp who spoke today . {sent} they said that they would never cross a picket line for whatever reason . {sent} i wonder how the hon. member for trinity feels about this . {sent} perhaps this is unfair to her because i did not discuss this matter with her before . {sent} perhaps i should ask the parliamentary secretary to the minister -- {sent} mr. murphy : they have to make a speech before you can do that . {sent} mr. gauthier : yes , i may have to ask that question of the parliamentary secretary to the house leader . {sent} perhaps the hon. member for gatineau ( mrs. mailly ) wishes to make a speech and to tell us how she would act . {sent} however , i am asking the question of the hon. member for trinity who has made public her views on this bill . {sent} we do not yet know the views of the hon. member for gatineau , but we may find out about them some day . {sent} what would the hon. member say in response to the comments i have just made ? {sent} miss nicholson ( trinity ) : mr. speaker , first , i do think it is logical to regard parliament as an essential service in which strikes would not be permitted . {sent} i think that way because of how important it is for citizens to be able to have access to their elected representatives to redress grievances . {sent} if parliament was not able to operate , the government and the executive level would operate without any checks and balances , and that would be most undesirable in a democracy . {sent} that kind of situation would be fraught with all kinds of possibilities for arbitrary decisions against citizens who would not have any means of redress . {sent} for those reasons , i think it is reasonable to withhold the right to strike from hill employees . {sent} however , having said that , workers who are deprived of that particular right , which is a blunt and very powerful weapon , must be protected in other ways . {sent} they must have -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret to inform the hon. member that there is not enough time left today . {sent} when we resume the debate , the hon. member for trinity ( miss nicholson ) will have the floor for another four minutes for questions and comments . {sent} parliamentary employment and staff relations act {sent} proceedings on adjournment motion {sent} a motion to adjourn the house under standing order 66 deemed to have been moved . {sent} official languages -- assistance for official language minority groups -- government position . {sent} ( b ) inquiry when government will act . {sent} i read some comments in the press that the government was rather slow and hesitant about implementing official languages programs and policies . {sent} i asked the question , because if i had known the answer , mr. speaker , i would not have asked the secretary of state for further details . {sent} we know that the court challenges program under which groups authorized to bring questions of national importance before the courts was expanded in september 1985 . {sent} as we know , mr. speaker , the whole process has been entrusted to a third party . {sent} the social planning council has been instructed to set up a panel to rule on the eligibility of the various claims . {sent} if the minister 's response tonight is that the said committee has to deal with 20 cases , i will say : yes , but where are the results ? {sent} i have not received any reply to that , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. speaker , my question was not about the official languages act . {sent} my question was more concerned with language programs and policies . {sent} you know , all this means is festina lente , mr. speaker . {sent} you understand latin , so you know what festina lente means . {sent} it means : make haste slowly . {sent} mr. speaker , that is not what we need . {sent} we need leadership . {sent} we will provide the necessary leadership , and we will give that leadership to canadians and we will show by our convictions -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order . {sent} the parliamentary secretary to the secretary of state ( mr.scott ) . {sent} support for minorities is an essential aspect of the over-all policy of the federal government with respect to the official languages . {sent} in addition , our government has maintained the $ 20 million budget for the official languages communities program . {sent} we have renewed and expanded the court challenges program and made sure that it will be administered by the canadian council on social development . {sent} we are now examining new ways to support the development of minorities in co-operation with the provinces , the private sector and volunteer organizations . {sent} the protocol on official languages in education has been renewed until 1988 with a 3 per cent increase for the first year . {sent} this means $ 432 million over two years . {sent} with regard to francophones in ontario receiving french language programming , our government has made a significant contribution . {sent} for 1985-86 we have provided $ 1.6 million for french language programming . {sent} the government has also made a commitment to finance half the costs of establishing the french network of tv ontario . {sent} this amounts to $ 3 million a year for five years . {sent} let us look at the hon. member 's concern regarding section 23 of the charter and the question of minority education rights . {sent} i want to point out that since the adoption of the charter of rights and freedoms , some provinces have improved the availability of education in the minority language . {sent} the province of ontario has dropped the criterion " where numbers warrant " and is proposing the establishment of a minority language school board in ottawa . {sent} the province of manitoba is reviewing minority school management . {sent} we are all aware , of course , of the federal government 's support to the northwest territories in establishing french as an official language of the territories . {sent} preliminary steps are now being taken to negotiate an agreement on official languages with the yukon . {sent} in short , mr. speaker , i think it is clear that the federal government has been and still is very supportive of the minority official languages communities throughout canada . {sent} research and development -- textiles -- government position {sent} the house knows my concern for the survival of the textile industry in canada , and i am particularly worried about the ability of our industry to cope with international competition . {sent} that is why i would like to inform the minister of my concerns about research in the textile industry . {sent} the textile industry has introduced ultramodern technology which is accessible throughout the world and it has become increasing capital intensive . {sent} we know that at the present time , canada has no research centres that are really specialized in textiles . {sent} i am referring to research aimed at discovering new products and new manufacturing processes . {sent} at the present time , when a textile manufacturer is looking for new ideas , he has to get them from the trade magazines or visit the textile fairs in europe . {sent} the house will agree it is not very practical to have to travel so far to learn something . {sent} and it will also recognize that small businesses are always penalized more than others , because they lack the resources to be able to send regularly a person or persons around the world to look for new concepts . {sent} we are now seeing the introduction of new technology with the latest computerized equipment for primary manufacturing operations . {sent} this research program is sponsored by a group of textile and garment manufacturers , the unions involved , and the american department of trade . {sent} in fact , it is a ten-year $ 69 million program being carried out in boston , in the state of massachussetts . {sent} the results are quite encouraging , and the prototype of a sewing system using mobile sewing machines remotely controlled by cameras and computers has been developed and tested in a plant . {sent} advanced research has been made to include other sewing operations and to lower the production cost of the prototype . {sent} this revolutionary sewing system should be on the market within three years . {sent} in western europe , research and development work is being done at two levels , by the european economic community and by individual countries . {sent} the european economic community 's research and development project has a budget of $ 17 million spread over four years , and will be up to 50 per cent financed by these countries . {sent} in canada , our main exports are furs and outer wear , which represent 49 per cent and 21 per cent , respectively , of the industry 's exports . {sent} actually , the countries of south-east asia have recently penetrated the fur market . {sent} are we going to let them have a free rein ? {sent} when i think of textile research and development in my own province , i think of businesses that have succeeded in taking the initiative and creating an original product . {sent} i am thinking , for instance , of nalpac , in montreal , which invented a revolutionary snow fence made of polyester . {sent} i am thinking of texcel in beauce , which manufactures geotextiles that are immensely useful for road construction in marshy areas . {sent} i am thinking of dominion textiles , in drummondville , which manufactures kevlar cloth for tires . {sent} mr. speaker , can you imagine what our inventive geniuses could do if they had technical support through a specialized textile research centre ? {sent} the centre could do regular testing on manufactured products entering canada to examine the actual composition of such products and find out whether they are up to import standards . {sent} it could also be a place where we would have a bank of experts . {sent} i know several people who are retired and who would be delighted to serve as consultants . {sent} mr. john mcdermid ( parliamentary secretary to minister of energy , mines and resources ) : mr. speaker , i want to congratulate the hon. member on his very fine and well researched presentation . {sent} it is well known in the house of commons that the hon. member for drummond ( mr. guilbault ) is very , very interested in ensuring that the textile industry progresses . {sent} he makes his presentations very well known to the minister of science and technology ( mr. oberle ) , as well as the minister of regional industrial expansion ( mr. stevens ) . {sent} the fully refundable r and d investment tax credit was specifically intended to assist such companies . {sent} it also happens to be my birthday , so it must be a great day . {sent} under the agreement , the two governments will spend $ 38 million over five years to promote research and technological innovation in quebec firms . {sent} while the initiatives must come from the firms , they are encouraged to collaborate closely with universities . {sent} research and textile fibre technology is supported at the university of guelph and the university of manitoba . {sent} the national research council maintains a team of 12 people who conduct research on textiles and textile fibres , the results of which are available to the industry . {sent} i know the hon. member mentioned that the textile industry may not be that interested in the nrc , but i am sure that the co-operation between the industry and nrc can improve and will do so . {sent} the field staff of nrc provides advice on research and the latest technology to the firms in the sector . {sent} the hon. member should know that quebec provides assistance to the centre québécois de la productivité et du rendement , and that the federal governmemt does not want to duplicate the work of that organization . {sent} finally , the federal government does much to promote technical progress in that sector . {sent} energy -- suggested discounts for motorists paying cash for gasoline {sent} mr. reginald stackhouse ( scarborough west ) : thank you , mr. speaker . {sent} the adjournment debate is designed to give members of parliament an opportunity for further discussion when members are not satisfied with answers they have received . {sent} i welcome this opportunity and thank the parliamentary secretary for his attendance . {sent} this would be an appropriate sequel to the actions already taken by the energy minister , who has clearly shown that she is an advocate for consumers . {sent} it is right that a minister be that kind of advocate . {sent} lobbyists represent different interest groups within canadian society on this hill . {sent} trade , business and labour associations all have their champions here . {sent} who represents individual consumers except their members of parliament and the government they elect ? {sent} speaking out on behalf of consumers is especially appropriate for a progressive conservative government , for ours is a people party that cares about people and their concerns . {sent} time on this adjournment debate does not permit the review of the many occasions when the conservative party has acted on behalf of consumers . {sent} robert stanfield , for example , as leader of the opposition , was ready to go as far as price controls . {sent} my question did not urge any action , extreme or moderate . {sent} in place of action , it suggested using moral suasion , for moral suasion has been proven to be an effective instrument in gaining fairness for the canadian consumer . {sent} the energy minister has herself made use of moral suasion on behalf of motorists in this country . {sent} i quote from her remarks in the house on march 12 : {sent} mr. speaker , i am glad to be able to tell the hon. member that politeness pays off . {sent} i have been encouraged by the effectiveness of her moral suasion . {sent} on march 13 , for example , one gas station in scarborough west charged 46.9 cents for regular gas and 49 cents for unleaded . {sent} politeness does pay off " . {sent} a caring government cares enough to help . {sent} as well , the discount for cash proposal is credible . {sent} already one of canada 's major oil companies has informed me that it is " seriously studying " this proposal and its application in british columbia . {sent} at this very moment in various parts of the u.s. , certain major oil companies such as esso are presently giving discount prices to motorists who pay with cash rather than credit cards in particular regions . {sent} the proposal is thus credible and practical . {sent} in response to my request on april 7 , i was told by the parliamentary secretary : {sent} no more would she suggest that a company do that than she would suggest that a haberdasher charge less for a suit when customers pay cash rather than use credit cards . {sent} there was simply no parallel there . {sent} i had to be impressed and somewhat amused by the way the word " haberdasher " was used in a political sense . {sent} the late president harry truman was a haberdasher . {sent} at one point in his life he saw the value of his inventory reduced by over 800 per cent in one week through bank action . {sent} there was a haberdasher who would have appreciated some government action . {sent} it has been demonstrated time and time again that moral suasion by the government produces results in private enterprise . {sent} i commend the minister for what she has done on behalf of consumers . {sent} i hope she might yet take one further step . {sent} moral suasion and politeness pay off . {sent} he has made an excellent suggestion to the oil companies . {sent} obviously they have already received his message loud and clear . {sent} the minister does not and will not interfere in the day-to-day operations of private sector companies . {sent} she has made that very , very clear . {sent} at one time , and i think rightfully so , she said that she expected the savings from falling oil prices would be passed on to the consumer . {sent} the companies are doing that . {sent} i would like to think that when the minister sent that telegram to the various companies , it had some effect . {sent} there are many marketing tools , and this is a marketing tool , which the companies use . {sent} the hon. member mentioned that some of the major oil companies use it in the u.s. , but only in certain areas . {sent} obviously it is a marketing tool within a certain area . {sent} i know that here in canada many of our energy companies provide 5 per cent discounts to various organizations which have a special card and buy their gas at a certain station of a certain company . {sent} these are all marketing practices carried on by various companies . {sent} the minister does not want to get involved in day-to-day marketing operations of these companies . {sent} we deregulated the industry and as a government , we are committed to deregulation . {sent} the canadian electorate have said that we should let them operate their businesses and get off their backs . {sent} they will do the job , they will create employment and make things better for canadians , but we should stop placing this burden of government on them . {sent} this is happening and we have seen some very positive results . {sent} obviously he has been in touch with one of the major oil companies , and he might want to encourage the others by making that suggestion to them . {sent} i thank him for bringing up this issue and for his concern . {sent} yes , we are very , very pleased that the savings resulting from lower oil prices have been passed on to consumers right across this great country of ours . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the motion to adjourn the house is now deemed to have been adopted . {sent} accordingly this house stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11 a.m. , pursuant to standing order 3(1) . {sent} the house adjourned at 6.54 p.m. {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} house of commons {sent} friday , april 18 , 1986 {sent} the house met at 11 a.m. {sent} crown corporations {sent} sale of canadian arsenals limited -- employees' pensions {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : on december 2 , 1985 , mr. speaker , the government announced its decision to authorize the divestiture of canadian arsenals limited in montreal . {sent} established in 1945 , this corporation is one of the most profitable agencies of the government of canada , with 750 employees in montreal and 50 more in saint-augustin near quebec city . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the 60 seconds have expired . {sent} the hon. member for humbolt -- lake centre ( mr. althouse ) . {sent} department of employment and immigration {sent} hiring practices in humboldt -- lake centre constituency {sent} mr. vic althouse ( humboldt -- lake centre ) : mr. speaker , i would like to begin the day with a small puzzle for members of the house . {sent} it is a brain teaser concerning a real life situation . {sent} since i do not know the answer , i will ask the house . {sent} has that created three jobs , two jobs , or one job ? {sent} those hon. members who get the answer have places reserved for them in the line-ups in front of their local canada employment offices . {sent} vandalism {sent} defacing of ukrainian monument in edmonton {sent} the words " nazi lies " were painted on the monument . {sent} the ukrainian canadian committee and the jewish federation of edmonton stated , and i quote : {sent} as a canadian of ukrainian racial origin i am outraged at this act of vulgarity against the memory of over six million ukrainians who were starved at the hands of communism . {sent} this monument reminds us of past evils and atrocities committed against ukrainians . {sent} people may deface monuments , but they cannot erase the memory of a people or change the truth of history . {sent} environmental affairs {sent} industrial pollution control in construction of noranda {sent} agriculture {sent} diesel fuel prices in upper ottawa valley {sent} yet farmers in the upper ottawa valley who will be on the land very soon are not paying lower prices . {sent} as diesel fuel costs form a significant portion of a farmer 's fixed costs , i find the present state of affairs grossly unfair and indicative of the government 's continuing insensitivity to the plight of the farmer . {sent} i call upon the minister of energy , mines and resources ( miss carney ) to initiate , on an urgent basis , a full and complete inquiry into diesel fuel prices in the upper ottawa valley . {sent} yet in the upper ottawa valley prices have not dropped at all . {sent} this is an injustice to the farm community and to the forest industry . {sent} it is a deplorable situation and needs immediate attention . {sent} the minister says she will not interfere with private enterprise . {sent} this is proof that she is not interfering with her friends who have oil interests . {sent} the economy {sent} positive effects from bank rate reduction {sent} yesterday , the bank of canada announced a further reduction in the bank rate . {sent} successive reductions within the last few weeks have had a positive impact on all sectors of our economy . {sent} according to statistics canada , sales reached $ 11.2 billion in february 1986 , an increase of 14.1 per cent over september 1984 , and 9.7 per cent over february 1985 . {sent} in quebec , the figures are almost identical : 14.2 per cent compared with september 1984 , and 9.2 per cent compared with february 1985 . {sent} mr. speaker , this is thanks to the sound and effective policies of our government . {sent} youth {sent} federal employment funding {sent} mr. rod murphy ( churchill ) : mr. speaker , this conservative government has turned its back on the unemployed and student youth . {sent} the total funding for summer employment experience development has been reduced from $ 163 million in 1985 to $ 127 million in 1986 . {sent} some of this money has already been siphoned off to be used only for expo ' 86 . {sent} what is the result ? {sent} this money is earmarked for municipal , public , and private sector job creation where wage subsidies are required . {sent} the government must act now to provide funds for youth , at least meeting and matching last year 's contribution , even if it is not willing to meet the real needs of unemployed youth . {sent} trade {sent} canada -- united states negotiations -- importance to sarnia-lambton {sent} enhanced trade with the u.s. is no longer an option for the canadian economy but a necessity . {sent} the choice is no longer between freer trade or maintaining the status quo , but between freer trade or closed borders . {sent} my riding of sarnia -- lambton , with its proximity to the u.s. , is extremely interested in having our borders opened . {sent} the unemployment rate in my constituency is far above the national average , and the attraction of new businesses and industries is essential to our area . {sent} earlier this week i attended the opening of an american company which has chosen the sarnia area as its first canadian location . {sent} on many other occasions we have not been so fortunate . {sent} recently another american firm was deterred from opening in our area because of the high tariffs and duties on goods entering the u.s. {sent} we must make a determined effort to attract new businesses into our country . {sent} opening our borders is very essential . {sent} the economy {sent} confidence in government policies {sent} the results clearly show confidence in the federal government 's economic and fiscal policies , as well as in the forthcoming trade negotiations with the united states . {sent} prostitution {sent} alleged discrimination resulting from bill c-49 {sent} mrs. lucie pépin ( outremont ) : mr. speaker , today i would like to discuss some of the consequences of the new legislation on soliciting for the purpose of engaging in prostitution . {sent} in vancouver , about two-thirds of the arrests made involved prostitutes and only one-third their clients . {sent} we had a glaring example the other day in vancouver of the difference between the treatment given prostitutes and the treatment given their clients . {sent} a prostitute and a client were both arrested for soliciting , and both cases were heard by the same judge . {sent} the prostitute was fined $ 150 or five days in jail , and the client was acquitted and put on probation . {sent} this evidence of discrimination proves that the many people who are opposed to this legislation are right . {sent} mr. speaker , once more i want to voice my objections against this unfair legislation which allows the police and judges to apply a double standard , depending on where their prejudice lies . {sent} industry {sent} b.c. telephone company -- announcement of lay-offs {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , b. c. telephone company appears to be deliberately terminating jobs for operators , most of whom are women . {sent} after decimating jobs for women in terrace , the company now plans to terminate some 70 jobs in cranbrook . {sent} since most women operators cannot leave their families to transfer elsewhere , this has resulted in a subtle tactic to reduce operators' jobs by the hundreds . {sent} we do not agree with the hon. member for kootenay east -- revelstoke ( mr. graham ) who has said that this is not a federal issue . {sent} we ask the minister of labour ( mr. mcknight ) to investigate whether b.c. tel is ignoring its responsibility under the canada labour code -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} agriculture {sent} freeze placed on grain companies' storage charges {sent} mr. lee clark ( brandon -- souris ) : mr. speaker , with low commodity prices and increasingly high input costs , canadian farmers are under an immense amount of financial pressure . {sent} therefore i was very relieved to learn that the canadian grain commission has frozen the amount that grain companies can charge farmers for storing , handling , and cleaning grain . {sent} this decision will mean a saving to canadian grain producers of an estimated $ 20 million . {sent} centennial of city of saint-léonard {sent} invitation to celebrations {sent} there is a series of activities that will take place between april 1986 and april 1987 , and they are all very exciting . {sent} we hope to see you among our enthusiastic crowds . {sent} welcome to saint-léonard on the occasion of its 100th birthday ! {sent} oral questions {sent} oral question period {sent} financial institutions {sent} imasco takeover of genstar {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of state for finance . {sent} will the government announce a policy prohibiting such takeovers and the continuing concentration of economic power in canada ? {sent} i will certainly respect the rights of parliament in addressing ownership policy , as i indicated yesterday . {sent} we have made a lot of progress in this arrangement we have made with imasco and genstar in terms of the conditions we laid down for them . {sent} government 's attitude {sent} we have made considerable strides . {sent} request that parliamentary committee be reconvened {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : mr. speaker , my final question is directed to the house leader in the absence of the hon. member who is the chairman of the standing committee on finance . {sent} hon. ray hnatyshyn ( president of privy council ) : mr. speaker , i think that is a good idea , but it is up to the members of the committee -- {sent} i think the right hon. member will understand that members of the committee , particularly under the new reform rules , are able to make these determinations . {sent} self-dealing inquiry {sent} miss aideen nicholson ( trinity ) : mr. speaker , my question is also for the minister of state for finance and also concerns the imasco takeover . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , we received an undertaking from genstar at the time of that takeover that there would be no self-dealing . {sent} we have much stronger undertakings from imasco , and we also have undertakings on other things on which we did not have undertakings before . {sent} respect for undertaking given by genstar {sent} miss aideen nicholson ( trinity ) : mr. speaker , the minister has said that she received an undertaking from genstar that it would not be involved in self-dealing , but can she confirm that that undertaking was respected ? {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i would be very happy to check with the superintendent of insurance , but no self-dealing incidents have been brought to my attention . {sent} superintendent of insurance {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , my question is also directed to the minister of state for finance and refers to the superintendent of insurance to whom the minister just referred . {sent} if her chief adviser said that it was not in the best interest of the country , why did she go against that advice ? {sent} it is fair to depositors . {sent} it is fair to the companies involved . {sent} it is fair to hon. members of the house who expressed concern about some of the matters on which we obtained undertakings . {sent} i think that is in the public interest . {sent} government 's decision {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary question for the minister . {sent} the clear recommendation of the finance committee on two occasions was to stop the takeover . {sent} it was virtually the opinion of the house of commons that the takeover should be stopped . {sent} can she identify any member of the house , or anybody , who says that the decision to go ahead with the takeover is a good idea or a good decision in the interest of canada and canadians ? {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : yes , mr. speaker , i think there are members of the house who think we did a good job on this deal . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} external affairs {sent} canada-libya relations -- request for comprehensive economic sanctions {sent} hon. herb gray ( windsor west ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the deputy prime minister . {sent} on january 10 the prime minister announced a series of economic measures against libya , but they were far from cutting off all significant economic relations with that country . {sent} would the government not agree that the situation has become far more serious than it was on january 10 ? {sent} replacement of american workers in libya by canadian workers {sent} hon. herb gray ( windsor west ) : mr. speaker , i am surprised the government does not realize that the situation has changed since january 10 . {sent} in the january 10 statement the government urged canadian companies and workers not to fill gaps when americans left libya . {sent} could the government assure the house today that this has not happened and that canadian companies and workers are not helping to prop up the libyan regime and everything connected with it ? {sent} could the government give us that assurance and tell us what steps it is taking , and has taken , to ensure that canadian workers and companies are not filling gaps left when americans withdrew from libya ? {sent} hon. erik nielsen ( deputy prime minister and minister of national defence ) : mr. speaker , i have told the hon. gentleman what steps canada has taken . {sent} the issue which he raises is certainly in the january 10 statement . {sent} any further alternatives which are to be explored are currently being explored by the government in preparation for discussion of the entire matter of the elimination of the reprehensible and evil scourge of terrorism throughout the world . {sent} financial institutions {sent} imasco takeover of genstar -- role of canada trust {sent} hon. edward broadbent ( oshawa ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state for finance . {sent} that is in the schedule which was signed by the company . {sent} corporate affairs {sent} increase in corporate mergers {sent} hon. edward broadbent ( oshawa ) : mr. speaker , in the policy that was announced , that will hold for only one year . {sent} it will be interesting to see all that spelled out at some point in the near future . {sent} quite apart from the self-dealing aspect of this issue , which was of great concern to members of the house committee and members of my party , we are also concerned about the alarming rate of mergers in the canadian economy . {sent} is the minister aware that in the 1960s some 250 mergers took place each year , that in 1985 there were over 700 , and the forecast rate of takeovers this year will exceed 900 ? {sent} is the minister aware of this trend and , if so , what does the government plan to do about it if it really believes in competition ? {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i am sure that many of those mergers and takeovers are probably very positive for canada . {sent} there will be some that will not be because of difficulties in one company or another . {sent} any practical experience in the business field would tell the hon. member that sometimes these are very beneficial . {sent} cost to taxpayers {sent} i have had a list prepared of 21 mergers that have taken place since 1979 which shows that these mergers have cost some $ 24 billion in the main , without producing more jobs . {sent} also they were mainly financed in some part by tax breaks . {sent} railways {sent} newfoundland railway -- federal-provincial discussions {sent} he knows that newfoundlanders have been waiting since last september for a decision on the fate of the newfoundland railway . {sent} indeed the minister in this house , and as recently as last night on cbc television in newfoundland , confirmed that discussions were ongoing with the newfoundland government . {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , i would hope those discussions will conclude and a decision be reached very soon . {sent} premier 's statement {sent} can the minister tell us why that very large contradiction exists between the statement of the minister , the hon. member for st. john 's west , and the denial by premier of newfoundland ? {sent} newfoundlanders have suffered long enough from an uncertainty caused , i suspect , by confederation-building in newfoundland at this time . {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , it is perhaps a matter of semantics . {sent} there have been discussions , and perhaps they could be referred to as negotiations , but i can confirm to the hon. member that there have been discussions . {sent} those discussions will continue until such time as an agreement can be reached more or less in principle , after which time we will set out to consult with the people of newfoundland , the communities , and particularly the workers involved . {sent} financial institutions {sent} ownership of imasco {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of supply and services . {sent} statistics canada , for which he is responsible , carefully reviews company structures and shareholdings to determine which are foreign controlled . {sent} hon. stewart mcinnes ( minister of supply and services ) : mr. speaker , i have not read that particular report , but i would be happy to review it and reply to my hon. friend . {sent} mr. langdon : mr. speaker , i suggest that the minister might be a bit more on top of his ministry . {sent} approval of genstar takeover {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , i will direct my supplementary question to the minister responsible for financial institutions . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , my hon. colleague to my right is very much on top of his ministry . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mrs. mcdougall : imasco is classified as a canadian company under fira and investment canada . {sent} bat in britain is a broadly-held company which does not have control of imasco 's board , even though it is a large shareholder . {sent} the board of directors is totally canadian controlled , and will continue to be so . {sent} railways {sent} future of newfoundland railway {sent} i will direct my question to the minister of transport . {sent} when are these governments going to stop playing peek-a-boo with each other and the people of newfoundland so that the people of newfoundland will know what is being discussed ? {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member 's rhetoric is a bunch of nonsense , and my previous answer stands . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} poll results {sent} is the minister so naive as to believe that the people 's belief that the highway is the most important mode will give justification for doing away with the railway ? {sent} through that reasoning the railway could be done away with right across the country . {sent} is that what the minister wants to do ? {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , i am not one-tenth as naive as the hon. member who just spoke . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- softwood exports {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of state for forestry . {sent} hon. gerald s. merrithew ( minister of state ( forestry ) ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member is wrong in his assumption that the canadian industry or the government has been inactive on this particular issue . {sent} we welcomed the delaying of the vote in the u.s. senate finance committee . {sent} we think that the president of the united states has given us an indication that the trade talks will start off with a clean launch , and that is what we are hoping for . {sent} minister 's position {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , to date the muldoon belly crawl has brought us quotas and tariffs . {sent} of all members of cabinet , the minister should have done something real through the 1986-87 estimates . {sent} all he has brought forward is one-half a person year in order to deal with the very real trade threat from the united states congress . {sent} is he prepared to explain why he did not do more in the 1986-87 estimates ? ? {sent} financial institutions {sent} future takeovers -- request for restrictions on self-dealing {sent} mr. w. paul mccrossan ( york-scarborough ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of state for finance . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i think we crossed an important watershed with the agreement with imasco . {sent} i do not want financial institutions in our country to be traded around like penny stocks . {sent} insurance {sent} introduction of legislation {sent} mr. alfonso gagliano ( saint-léonard -- anjou ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state for finance . {sent} can the minister tell canadians if she is encouraging such programs , and when she will table legislation to protect canadians under this new system ? {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i thank the hon. member for his continued interest in this important issue . {sent} our officials are continuing to study the specific problems and are in the process of developing an approach which we think will be helpful . {sent} the industry itself has been helpful in coming up with solutions . {sent} i think the worst of our crisis is over . {sent} legislation on property and casualty insurance will be forthcoming shortly . {sent} casualty self-insurance {sent} is she going to consult with her colleague , the minister of consumer and corporate affairs , so that canadian consumers will be protected under this new casualty self-insurance system ? {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i consult regularly with my colleague , the minister of consumer and corporate affairs . {sent} i am very anxious to get this legislation into the house as rapidly as possible . {sent} sometimes i am a little optimistic about timing . {sent} financial institutions {sent} genstar takeover -- reported earnings of chairman and president {sent} mr. john r. rodriguez ( nickel belt ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state for finance and is with regard to the imasco takeover of genstar . {sent} was the minister aware of that ? {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i have seen those reports in the press , but have not confirmed them with anyone . {sent} minister 's position {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i think that the arrangements between buyers and sellers are their own . {sent} mr. rodriguez : it 's a conflict . {sent} mrs. mcdougall : what may seem extravagant to the hon. member , and perhaps even to myself , is not necessarily what is going to take place between consenting adults . {sent} mr. murphy : we are paying for it , remember that . {sent} status of women {sent} nielsen report -- halt to creation of university chairs of women 's studies -- government position {sent} mrs. lucie pépin ( outremont ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state responsible for the status of women . {sent} one of the recommendations of the nielsen report is to stop creating chairs of women 's studies . {sent} we know that interdisciplinary research is essential to the progress being by women in every way . {sent} i wish the minister would let us know whether he intends to implement this recommendation in the nielsen report . {sent} she will also know that study teams have in other places dealt with women 's issues , such as the advisory council on the status of women . {sent} they have called for more research and enhanced appointment of women . {sent} all in all , some of the recommendations relating to women from the different study teams can be readily accepted , and others need to be discussed . {sent} promotion of studies -- government position {sent} therefore , i would like to hear from the minister whether he intends to implement the nielsen report is recommendation , which is not at all like the answer he just gave me . {sent} so , is he going to implement this recommendation , and if not , what kind of measures is he going to take to promote research ? {sent} i think that what the council does and what chairs for women 's studies do are two entirely different things . {sent} hon. walter mclean ( minister of state ( immigration ) and minister responsible for the status of women ) : mr. speaker , i want to thank the hon. member for her representations . {sent} i share with her the importance of research into women 's studies . {sent} as she knows , in the last year there was the completion of five regional chairs set up across the country . {sent} canadian national railways {sent} sale of cn route -- situation of workers {sent} mr. rod murphy ( churchill ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of transport . {sent} he knows that cn route is selling its assets to three toronto investors . {sent} in the negotiations did the government or the minister take any steps to guarantee job security for the workers involved ? {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , the cn management and board have agreed in principle to a proposal to sell cn route . {sent} within the context of that agreement there will be provision for certain job guarantees . {sent} the hon. member should be aware that the final package will have to be approved by the governor-in-council and the ctc . {sent} until such time as all of these details can be worked out with the unions and all other parties affected , we are not in a position to say just what the full package will look like . {sent} retirement packages inquiry {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , in the past cn has been very generous in its severance arrangements and early retirement packages . {sent} these kinds of arrangements are being negotiated with the unions within the context of the purchase agreement which has been put together . {sent} income tax {sent} collection of delinquent taxes -- amnesty program proposal {sent} mr. ken james ( sarnia -- lambton ) : mr. speaker , in the absence of the minister of national revenue i will direct my question to his parliamentary secretary . {sent} since that time has the department had an opportunity to look into the feasibility of this program as a means of allowing canadians who would like to do so to come forward and pay delinquent income taxes ? {sent} currently in canada there is a voluntary disclosure program which allows anyone who has failed to file a return , or who has filed an incorrect return , to make a voluntary disclosure subsequently without fear of prosecution . {sent} this matter is held in strictest confidence between the taxpayer and revenue canada . {sent} i want to assure the hon. member that i will take his concern as a representation to the minister . {sent} fisheries {sent} resource short plant program {sent} the government does have a resource short plant program but it is not working as it should . {sent} is he prepared to review that program and make the necessary changes to ensure an adequate supply of fish to those plants and protect the jobs of those workers ? {sent} if i understand the hon. gentleman correctly , he is asking the government to review the program with a view to looking at those objective criteria once again . {sent} i do not know where the minister might be in that review process , but i will certainly draw the hon. gentleman 's representations to his attention as soon as he returns to the house . {sent} newfoundland government 's middle-distance fleet licensing application {sent} i want to know where those licences stand . {sent} is the government of canada going to issue licences to the government of newfoundland for that new middle-distance fleet ? {sent} hon. erik nielsen ( deputy prime minister and minister of national defence ) : mr. speaker , i am sure the hon. gentleman would not expect me to have that kind of detail in the house today . {sent} i shall certainly bring that matter as well to the attention of the minister as soon as he returns . {sent} expo 86 {sent} refusal of visitors' visas {sent} mr. ian waddell ( vancouver -- kingsway ) : mr. speaker , the premier of british columbia has invited the world to come to expo 86 . {sent} that is terrific . {sent} however , for the government of canada that apparently does not include the third world . {sent} we are also aware that where there are visitor visa provisions in place , the officers dealing with these cases should be particularly sensitive to the circumstances of expo 86 . {sent} agriculture {sent} problems of quebec potato producers {sent} as to the observation about the problems in quebec , i would be pleased to present that particular position to the minister who is absent on government duty . {sent} request for immediate assistance {sent} mr. jacques guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : mr. speaker , i am glad the minister realizes there is a difficult situation in quebec , but it seems to me the government could do more . {sent} why is it helping only two of the potato producing provinces -- not that i disapprove of helping prince edward island and new brunswick , -- but only has words of sympathy for quebec producers ? {sent} we would like immediate assistance . {sent} hon. gerald s. merrithew ( minister of state ( forestry ) ) : mr. speaker , the importance of the potatato producers in those two provinces of prince edward island and new brunswick is very significant . {sent} they had very real problems in putting in this year 's crop . {sent} however , i will take the hon. member 's representations to the minister . {sent} forestry {sent} inquiry if new developments occurred following canada-quebec agreement on genetics of small plants sought by quebec {sent} mr. gabriel fontaine ( lévis ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state ( forestry ) . {sent} have there been any significant developments in the genetics of small plants , in co-operation with the quebec private sector , since the agreement was signed ? {sent} i believe that the first run of seeds from that particular strain will be available this year . {sent} forestry {sent} request for establishment of separate department {sent} ms. pauline jewett ( new westminster -- coquitlam ) : mr. speaker , my question also is directed to the minister of state for forestry . {sent} it must be his day today . {sent} is he aware that his colleague , the chairman of the standing committee on environment and forestry , has called for the creation of a complete department of forestry which would be a line department ? {sent} will he tell us when this will come about ? {sent} if and when any changes in the machinery or structure of government are made , it will be announced by the prime minister at the appropriate time and in the appropriate place . {sent} inquiry of minister {sent} hon. erik nielsen ( deputy prime minister and minister of national defence ) : mr. speaker , again i can only reiterate my last answer . {sent} however , i am sure all members of the house will agree when i tell the hon. member that we have a very able , excellent , talented , and gifted minister of state for forestry now . {sent} occupational health and safety {sent} smoking in federal buildings -- government appeal against board decision {sent} hon. chas. l. caccia ( davenport ) : i have a question for the minister of national health and welfare to brighten up his morning and inject some life into it . {sent} will he stop the appeal ? {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , i have had a wonderful morning and i have met very many interesting people . {sent} i hope my contribution to the hon. member 's morning will finally give him some light as well . {sent} we are encouraging federal departments to follow the lead that has been taken , not only in my department but in a few other agencies and departments of government as well , and simply declare workplace areas " smoke free " . {sent} that created some difficulties -- not the principle that we would like to see smoke-free areas throughout the federal government . {sent} reasons for appeal {sent} why the appeal if he means what he says ? {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , i mean exactly what i said . {sent} i just explained it . {sent} if the hon. member wants to attend at noon when i speak to another group , he will see that i will be saying the same thing . {sent} airports {sent} ottawa international airport renovations {sent} mr. barry turner ( ottawa -- carleton ) : mr. speaker , in the absence of the minister of transport my question is directed to the government house leader . {sent} as we know , the ottawa international airport is still undergoing considerable renovations and will be for some time , at great inconvenience to its users . {sent} when can we expect to see some use of the new facilities at the airport which have been under construction for a very long time ? {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} hon. ray hnatyshyn ( president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , as they say out at the ottawa international airport , tempus fugit . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} some hon. members : what year ? {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : in 1986 , mr. speaker . {sent} canadian home insulation program {sent} phasing out of program -- committee report {sent} mr. jean-robert gauthier ( ottawa -- vanier ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of energy , mines and resources . {sent} a communique put out by the joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments criticizes the phasing out of the canadian home insulation program . {sent} they go so far as to say that the committee believes the powers and action of the minister : {sent} -- were not authorized by the -- legislation , amounted to an unusal use of the powers granted by parliament , and infringed the rule of law and the principles of fairness and natural justice . {sent} what will the minister do about this unanimous report of the committee ? {sent} hon. pat carney ( minister of energy , mines and resources ) : mr. speaker , this report has been drawn to my attention . {sent} it is my view that it has been based on misleading and inaccurate analyses of the situation . {sent} it suggests that these measures were -- {sent} mr. gauthier : it is a unanimous report . {sent} miss carney : you asked the question , maybe i could answer . {sent} it suggests that these measures were announced by press release without cabinet approval . {sent} these measures were not announced by me , they were announced by the minister of finance on november 8 , on behalf of the president of the treasury board . {sent} they were tabled in the house in the blue book of that date . {sent} the suggestion that anyone lost a benefit -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} financial institutions {sent} imasco takeover of genstar -- role of canada trust -- self-dealing inquiry {sent} hon. edward broadbent ( oshawa ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state for finance . {sent} i am sure that she would not deliberately mislead the house . {sent} earlier i asked her if it was the case that one subsidiary of imasco -- canada trust -- could make a loan to another imasco subsidiary , namely , imperial tobacco , at the end of next year . {sent} the minister replied that it was not possible because there was an agreement by imasco not to allow that . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i apologize to the hon. member . {sent} there is a general clause in the agreement that takes effect at the end of december , 1987 . {sent} as the house knows , our intent is to put in place laws of general application and , with my optimistic nature , hopefully it will be long before then and will apply in this case . {sent} minister 's position {sent} hon. edward broadbent ( oshawa ) : mr. speaker , i want the minister to be perfectly clear about what is at stake here with this takeover . {sent} in terms of existing law , the concerns of committee members on both sides of the house are still going to be -- {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} may i have a question , please ? {sent} mr. broadbent : we are being asked to buy a pig in a poke . {sent} that is what the government is doing . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , there is no pig and there is no poke . {sent} this company has made a real undertaking to conform to our public policy requirements . {sent} it did so at our request and we worked very hard to bring about this arrangement . {sent} legislation is forthcoming that will apply to this and other companies as well . {sent} immigration {sent} unscrupulous immigration consultants {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state for immigration . {sent} he has made it public that he is trying to rid the system of phoney refugees . {sent} yet there is growing concern that much of the problem lies with unscrupulous immigration consultants who are scheming fraudulent schemes against innocent individuals . {sent} is the minister prepared also to rid the system of phony consultants ? {sent} and is he prepared to ask his colleague , the solicitor general , to persecute and charge such individuals -- {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : you have a persecution complex . {sent} mr. marchi : prosecute -- some of whom his department knows about ? {sent} mr. hees : liberals persecute . {sent} as the hon. member knows , the rcmp at the moment are investigating the matter . {sent} i would ask the hon. member and others to provide information which may permit action to be taken . {sent} i also want to say that i have been in touch with particularly the portuguese community and others to assure them that this particular action is regrettable and we are seeking to take whatever action is necessary . {sent} i might remind the hon. member that the previous government conducted a study of this matter and was unable to act . {sent} he might like to acquaint himself with the report which was tabled by the hon. member for winnipeg-fort garry . {sent} mr. marchi : a short question ? {sent} mr. speaker : no. {sent} mr. speaker : tomorrow . {sent} an hon. member : do you feel persecuted ? {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} statements by ministers {sent} routine proceedings {sent} petitions {sent} government response {sent} procedure and organization {sent} tabling of government response to first report of standing committee {sent} statements by ministers {sent} organ donor awareness week {sent} minister 's statement {sent} recipients of family allowance cheques will find with their cheques this month a leaflet on organ donation with a detachable organ donor card . {sent} information kits have been distributed to the media and most canadian hospitals alerting them to the importance of organ donation and transplantation and providing them with resource items to facilitate their involvement . {sent} i shall officially launch the week at a news conference in halifax on monday . {sent} today thousands of canadians are awaiting a transplant which will improve the quality of their life . {sent} for many of these people a transplant offers them the only chance for survival . {sent} however , many will not receive that transplant because there are not enough organs and tissues available . {sent} i , therefore , urge all hon. members to make a personal commitment to organ donation and to do what they can to encourage organ donation in their constituencies . {sent} please sign a donor card or the donor card portion of your driver 's licence . {sent} please inform your family and doctor about your wishes . {sent} consider what you can do to make something good happen by giving the most generous gift of all , the gift of life . {sent} i think it is very important to publicize organ donations , because a substantial number of canadian men and women depend on such donations in order to survive or to substantially improve their quality of life . {sent} the example of diane hébert will help to convince people that an organ donation can be a real success . {sent} this young woman waited more than two years for a heart-lung transplant . {sent} today , she is asking to have transplants made easier by giving people the option of indicating their desire to make organ donations on their health insurance cards . {sent} this month , family allowance cheque recipients will receive a leaflet urging them to make organ donations . {sent} i too want to urge them to make organ donations and i would also ask all my colleagues in our three political groups here in the house and everyone in the beautiful riding of outremont to do likewise . {sent} an organ donation is truly a gift of life . {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops-shuswap ) : mr. speaker , it is a pleasure to respond on behalf of my colleagues in the new democratic party in support of the initiative of the minister . {sent} we congratulate him for the statement he has made in the house today urging all canadians to participate in the donation of organs for this most valuable reason . {sent} indeed , it is a wonder of science that enables us to make this ultimate gesture , the giving of life itself . {sent} the minister has identified next week as being national donor awareness week . {sent} perhaps as members of parliament we can pledge our own organs next week as a dedication to science and transplantation purposes . {sent} again , we applaud the minister for this initiative and we will encourage our constituents to follow suit . {sent} point of order {sent} point of order {sent} request for government response to report of standing committee {sent} mr. dan heap ( spadina ) : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} he has already violated that obligation once by refusing to submit a comprehensive response to a previous report . {sent} he promised then that he would do the two together at this time . {sent} i received a letter from him in which he says he is not ready and will do it later . {sent} i want to ask you , mr. speaker , if you will refer this matter to what i believe is a new committee , the committee on elections , privileges and procedure because this is not the first time that this minister has breached this standing order . {sent} if you wish to reserve on this matter , mr. speaker , i would be glad to have your response . {sent} he went on to make reference to the quality or content of that particular response . {sent} i do not believe that is an appropriate point of order . {sent} the point of order , however , is out of order because there has been a compliance and response by the minister on each of these two occasions . {sent} i do not think it is appropriate for us to comment on the quality of these responses . {sent} mr. heap : point of order . {sent} mr. speaker : the hon. member is already on one point of order . {sent} i presume he wants me to finish this one before he raises another . {sent} mr. rodriguez : on the same point of order . {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} mr. heap : point of order . {sent} mr. speaker : on a separate point of order ? {sent} mr. heap : no , on the same point of order . {sent} i did give you the facts as contained in the letter of the minister , if a page will bring it to you . {sent} mr. speaker : yes , of course , the hon. member may send me what he has . {sent} mr. heap : the word " comprehensive " is a joke if this is a comprehensive answer . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} committee reports {sent} committees of the house {sent} striking -- twenty-ninth and thirtieth reports of standing committee {sent} mr. scott fennell ( ontario ) : mr. speaker , i have the honour to present , in both official languages , the twenty-ninth and thirtieth reports of the striking committee . {sent} pension benefits standards act , 1985 {sent} presentation of report of legislative committee {sent} mr. bob brisco ( kootenay west ) : mr. speaker , i have the honour to present , in both official languages , the legislative committee report on bill c-90 . {sent} ( editor 's note : for above , see today 's votes and proceedings . ) {sent} petitions {sent} petitions {sent} reinstatement of katimavik program {sent} use of pension income in calculation of uic benefits {sent} hon. william rompkey ( grand falls -- white bay -- labrador ) : mr. speaker , i wish to present a petition on behalf of several hundred constituents in my riding . {sent} it is with respect to the issue of pension funds now being considered as income for unemployment insurance purposes . {sent} they call upon the house to encourage the government to change this unfair and inequitable practice . {sent} order paper questions {sent} questions on the order paper {sent} ( questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk . ) {sent} mr. doug lewis ( parliamentary secretary to president of the privy council ) : mr.speaker , the following questions will be answered today : 523 , 525 and 526 . {sent} post-harvest treatment of fruits and vegetables {sent} question no. 523 -- mr. caccia : {sent} 1 . {sent} 2 . {sent} 3 . {sent} are toxicity tests conducted on the chemicals in canada or in the united states and , if so by ( a ) government ( b ) private laboratory ? {sent} 4 . {sent} are the results of toxicity tests available to the public and , if so , how is the public informed of the contents and hazards of any of the chemicals used ? {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : 1 . {sent} in addition , the " waxy " coating protects against the invasion of spoilage micro-organisms . {sent} 2 . {sent} ( a ) and ( b ) all of these substances fall within the purview of the canadian food and drugs act and regulations administered by health and welfare canada ( hwc ) . {sent} mineral oil , petrolatum and paraffin are regulated as food additives under the food and drug regulations . {sent} 3 . {sent} ( a ) and ( b ) various types of toxicological tests have been conducted on all the substances mentioned in ( 1 ) above . {sent} as a general rule , hpb does not undertake toxicity studies to support the use of chemicals in food but rather evaluates all available data which may have been produced by a variety of sources . {sent} in the case of these coatings , toxicity data are available from private laboratories , universities , et cetera in various countries including the united states , canada and europe . {sent} 4 . {sent} many of the toxicity studies available on these substances are published in the scientific literature and thus are available to the public . {sent} in addition , hpb is prepared to offer additional comments on the safety aspects of any of these chemicals . {sent} substances considered to pose a hazard to consumers would not be permitted for use under existing regulatory authority . {sent} employment levels in coal producing areas of b.c. {sent} question no. 525 -- mr. broadbent : {sent} 1 . {sent} 2 . {sent} what actions and / or representations did the government initiate to encourage the japanese government to review coal purchasing policies by japanese steel companies in british columbia ? {sent} 3 . {sent} hon. ray hnatyshyn ( president of the privy council ) : i am informed by the departments of energy , mines and resources and employment and immigration as follows : {sent} 1 . {sent} in july , 1985 , an initial industrial adjustment service ( ias ) agreement was signed . {sent} the joint committee is responsible to seek out employment opportunities for more than 80 senior staff members ( managers , administrators , professionals , etc. ) . {sent} to date , over 50 employees have been placed with other companies in the area . {sent} at the same time , a second ias agreement was signed on behalf of approximately 300 workers , members of either the united mine workers or the office and technical employees union . {sent} limited success has been achieved for this group ; howerver , job opportunities continue to be sought ( e.g. the expected reopening of the faro mine ) . {sent} a joint company / ceic - ias human resource planing agreement is in place to deal with future planning and adjustment developments . {sent} fording coal ltd. this operation has stabilized and ocntinues with a work force of some 1400 . {sent} line creek - crows nest resources ltd. an effective working relationship has been established between this operation and the b.c. region . {sent} a joint memorandum of understanding has been signed to deal with future planning and adjustment developments concerning the company 's 700 employees . {sent} 2 . {sent} the federal government 's policy with respect to coal , and for many ofther commodities , has been to leave the commercial and financial details of contracts to the private sector participants . {sent} in line with the above policy , the coal purchasing policies of the japanese steel companies in b.c. were not discussed . {sent} 3 . {sent} at the january , 1986 meeting between the prime ministers of japan and canada , several issues germane to the canaidna resource sector generally were raised . {sent} with respect to coal , it was noted that canada as a whole is committed to remaining a reliable supplier of coal to japan . {sent} coal exports to japan {sent} question no. 526 -- mr. broadbent : {sent} what was the value and quantity of coal exported to japan over the past three years from the ( a ) northeast coal fields ( b ) southeast coal fields in british columbia ? {sent} mr. john mcdermid ( parliamentary secretary to minister of energy , mines and resources ) : {sent} 8 {sent} mr. lewis : i ask , mr. speaker , that the remainning questions be allowed to stand . {sent} mr. speaker : the questions enumerated by the hon. parliamentary secretary have been answered . {sent} shall the remaining questions stand ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} canadian arsenals limited {sent} government orders {sent} canadian arsenals limited divestiture authorization act {sent} measure to enact {sent} mr. speaker : first , i would like to advise the house that because of the ministerial statement government orders will be extended by five minutes today after one o'clock . {sent} there are five motions on this day 's order paper relating to bill c-87 . {sent} i have had the opportunity to examine the said motions and find that they are all in order . {sent} they will be proceeded with as follows . {sent} motions nos. 1 , 2 and 3 will be grouped for debate . {sent} since motion no. 3 is consequential to motion no. 1 , a vote on motion no. 1 will apply to motion no. 3 . {sent} mr. gauthier : could we get a copy of that ? {sent} mr. speaker : has this not been distributed ? {sent} mr. speaker : a vote on motion no. 1 will dispose of motion no. 2 . {sent} motions nos. 4 and 5 are identical . {sent} the chair will select motion no. 4 which will be debated and voted on separately . {sent} i apologize for the notice not having been distributed in time to hon. members . {sent} hon. stewart mcinnes ( minister of supply and services ) moved : {sent} motion no. 1 {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended by adding immediately after line 34 at page 5 the following : {sent} " 12 . {sent} ( a ) immediately before the coming into force of this section , the person was employed by the corporation and was a contributor under the public service superannuation act ; {sent} ( 2 ) an election referred to in paragraph (1)(e ) is irrevocable . {sent} ( 3 ) the governor in council may , in relation to persons who make the election referred to in paragraph (1)(e ) , make regulations {sent} ( a ) specifying which provisions of the acts and regulations mentioned in subsection ( 1 ) apply , and to what extent they apply ; {sent} ( b ) adapting provisions of those acts and regulations for the purposes of this section ; and {sent} ( c ) generally for carrying out the purposes of this section . {sent} ( 4 ) regulations made under subsection ( 3 ) may be made applicable on and after a day before their publication if they so provide . " {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry-prescott-russell ) moved : {sent} motion no. 2 {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended by adding immediately after line 34 at page 5 the following : {sent} " 12 . {sent} an employee of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of transfer , will have the right , on transferring to the new employer , either to : {sent} ( b ) become a contributor to the pension plan as described in the agreement of purchase and sale between the government and the new employer . " {sent} hon. stewart mcinnes ( minister of supply and services ) moved : {sent} motion no. 3 {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended in clause 12 by striking out line 35 at page 5 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 12 . {sent} subsection 3(2) and section 9 to 12 " . {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} it is quite unrelated to the matter before the house , but it is something which has been the subject of discussion and agreement between the parties . {sent} it has to do with the special committee on the pricing of domestic wheat . {sent} mr. speaker : i take it that the president of the privy council seeks unanimous consent to revert to motions . {sent} is it agreed ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} canadian arsenals limited {sent} routine proceedings {sent} special committee on the pricing of domestic wheat {sent} power to travel to winnipeg -- reporting date {sent} hon. ray hnatyshyn ( president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , i think your honour will find a disposition to receive at this point in time the following draft order and to approve it without debate . {sent} it reads as follows : {sent} mr. speaker : is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} canadian arsenals limited {sent} government orders {sent} canadian arsenals limited divestiture authorization act {sent} measure to enact {sent} mr. bud bradley ( parliamentary secretary to minister of supply and services ) : mr. speaker , i rise at this time to speak to the amendments to bill c-87 . {sent} the pension situation of employees involved in the privatization of canadian arsenals limited , both in terms of accrued pension benefits and future pension expectations , has been of significant concern to the government . {sent} as a consequence , the government has concluded that a further measure of protection should be added . {sent} therefore , it has tabled a motion to amend bill c-87 accordingly . {sent} as i am sure hon. members will appreciate , the degree of control that the government can exercise over the pension entitlements earned by cal employees through future employment with snc is limited . {sent} it would not be appropriate for government to intervene unduly with the flexibility of management and employees to arrive at mutually-acceptable terms and conditions of employment over the long term . {sent} nor would it be consistent with privatization to allow the employees to continue to be covered under the pension plan for federal public servants for service after the date of sale . {sent} in its briefing before the parliamentary committee , snc clearly indicated that it will fulfil both of these requirements . {sent} the transfer of portability option , which i have just described , will appeal to some cal employees ; but there are two other important options which will also be made available to every employee . {sent} the first of these would be the normal options available to employees on ceasing to be contributors under the pssa . {sent} employees will be able to choose to receive whatever benefit would be available to them under the terms of the pssa as though they were ceasing to be employed on the date the corporation is sold . {sent} the choice available to the individual will , of course , depend upon his or her age and length of pensionable service . {sent} the other option the government is seeking to make available to cal employees through the present motion to amend bill c-87 is based on the concept of continuity of service for benefit eligibility . {sent} on ceasing to be employed with the purchasing employer , the employee would then opt for benefits under the selling employer 's pension plan . {sent} while he or she would not have earned further pension under the old plan , the employee would use the second employment toward qualifying for benefits . {sent} perhaps i could give an example that might make this clearer . {sent} in other words , the individual has been able to preserve his ability to meet the 50-30 threshold . {sent} obviously this option may well appeal to some employees , depending upon their personal plans and expectations . {sent} i would like to add one final comment on this particular option . {sent} as hon. members are aware , the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) is currently consulting his advisory committee on the public service superannuation act on broad questions of public service pension reform . {sent} finally , i would like to stress that in all instances , employees will have one year from the point of sale to select the options they prefer . {sent} complex questions are involved and it is intended that each individual will be provided with the appropriate information and counselling to make the best possible personal decision . {sent} under the privatization arrangements proposed by the government , cal employees have a number of options with respect to pensions . {sent} the first option is to transfer accrued pension benefits to the new snc pension plan under reciprocal transfer arrangements . {sent} this transfer would be done on an actuarial , ongoing basis and negotations are under way to guarantee that all amounts transferred will be for the sole and exclusive benefit of transferring employees . {sent} depending upon the age and service of employees , there are other options . {sent} the second is a return of contributions plus interest . {sent} the third is a deferred annuity at age 60 . {sent} mr. cassidy : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : if there is unanimous consent , i will allow it . {sent} is there such unanimous consent ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret that there is no unanimous consent . {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , i am pleased to participate in this debate on report stage of this bill . {sent} i am not sure that the phrase " more generous " is an appropriate one under the circumstances . {sent} the best way to describe it would be to say that these amendments make it not quite as bad as it used to be . {sent} i challenge the hon. member to say that had the opposition not brought some of these issues to the attention of the committee we would not have seen very many amendments to this legislation . {sent} i must say that i am anxiously awaiting the remarks of the hon. member for terrebonne ( mr. toupin ) who represents almost all the people affected by this bill . {sent} i am sure he will speak vividly and forcefully in this particular debate in order to ensure that his constituents get all the benefits they deserve . {sent} i must say that i am a little disappointed that we did not hear from him at committee , but perhaps there is still time for that today . {sent} at issue today is not snc . {sent} i think it has made its reputation in the past and we know it to be what most people would consider a good employer . {sent} during the committee hearings , members of the committee asked representatives of the public service alliance what they were asking for their employees . {sent} some hon. members : they are members . {sent} mr. boudria : the hon. members across the way say quite correctly that they are members of that alliance but they are our employees . {sent} they are our constituents and it is our duty as members of the house of commons to take care of their concerns and to act toward them in the best way possible . {sent} the parliamentary secretary used the example of an employee who had worked for the public service alliance for 25 years . {sent} he described how the 50-30 threshold would be achieved under the amendment brought before us in motion no. 1 . {sent} that may be well and good . {sent} there is really only one solution to this dilemma . {sent} i submit that that solution is motion no. 2 which i have put before the house . {sent} motion no. 2 asks for employees of canadian arsenals limited to be given the same benefits that the government has given to employees of other companies which have been divested in the past . {sent} in particular , i want the same benefits which we as a parliament gave when the deer lodge hospital and several other institutions were transferred from the federal government to other jurisdictions . {sent} it does not matter whether the other jurisdictions were provincial entities or the private sector . {sent} the point is still the same ; our employees are being transferred elsewhere . {sent} there are two ways in which this could be achieved . {sent} for example , the employees could continue to contribute toward the federal plan , even though they were no longer federal employees , with snc contributing its share . {sent} the government indicated that that would not be possible because it would create a precedent . {sent} i do not agree , but , nevertheless , the government has taken that position . {sent} the public service alliance has indicated that it is prepared to go along with my motion no. 2 . {sent} all existing employees of canadian arsenals could then continue contributing until retirement . {sent} of course any other employee or new employee of snc would not be in the same situation . {sent} it would provide a means to accommodate those government employees , those employees of a crown corporation . {sent} there is a clear and easy way to accomplish that , and i have indicated it in motion no. 2 . {sent} the minister has indicated that he has some reluctance with the amendment because there would then be two classes of employees at snc . {sent} in his view there would be those employees who had the government pension plan and those who had a private one . {sent} that will be the case anyway . {sent} one group of employees will have two pension plans , one based on their number of years in the public service and the other based on their number of years with snc . {sent} the other group would have just the snc plan . {sent} we are not deciding whether there will be two levels of benefits . {sent} we know it already and we cannot change it . {sent} the question before us today is the approval of motion no. 2 which would provide a means whereby our employees , those employees of canadian arsenals , would be able to continue to contribute both the employee 's share and the employer 's share to the public service superannuation plan . {sent} the employees have agreed to pay both shares , and they will attempt to recover some , if not all , of those funds from their new employer through the collective bargaining process . {sent} i believe it is a very reasonable compromise , and the public service alliance has agreed to it . {sent} certainly it is one with which the government can live . {sent} as a matter of fact , what we are trying to do in this case is less than what was done in the case of deer lodge hospital . {sent} if we could live with it in the past , we could certainly live with it now . {sent} it is not a precedent setting issue at all . {sent} it involves fairness on the part of us collectively toward the treatment of those employees . {sent} yesterday i referred to fair treatment of employees of the house of commons . {sent} today i am talking about employees of the government of canada . {sent} in my view we can , if we have the desire and political will , achieve this result with little or no difficulty . {sent} before dealing specifically with motions nos. 1 and 2 which are before us today , i should like to spend a moment providing some background on the bill . {sent} many months ago in british columbia some erroneous correspondence was circulated saying that i was in great support of the privatization of canadian arsenals limited . {sent} for that reason i will refer to some background information which will indicate why that was never the case and is not the case now . {sent} mr. riis : it will never be the case . {sent} mr. fulton : it will never be the case . {sent} there are 750 employees at le gardeur and 50 at st. augustin . {sent} the public service alliance of canada is the principal union with about 570 of the employees as members . {sent} the federal government , through the department of national defence , is the company 's largest customer , responsible for some 90 per cent of its sales . {sent} some 10 per cent of its sales are exported . {sent} the following question has been legitimately and properly raised by the workers and many members of the house : why sell it ? {sent} last year its profits totalled well in excess of $ 11 million . {sent} at that time it was ranked as no. 470 in the financial post top 500 in terms of sales . {sent} however , the interesting point is that the company was ranked as no. 3 in canada for its five-year profit growth by the financial post . {sent} again the question is raised : why sell ? {sent} according to the projections of the government , sales are expected to double over the next five years . {sent} the sale of canadian arsenals requires the approval of parliament , unlike corporations under cdic such as de havilland . {sent} according to the press release there were eight bidders and snc was the highest . {sent} the public service alliance of canada was never notified of the government 's intention to privatize , and learned of it only through press reports . {sent} that is a matter which the house should ponder in some greater detail . {sent} why did that take place , and what kind of government attitude does it demonstrate ? {sent} key questions have been raised by the workers and their representatives with psac on the issues of job security , pensions and the canada labour code . {sent} at this point i should like to deal with the two particular motions before us . {sent} as someone very active on the question of pensions and unions , having been a former member of the b.c. government employees' union , i have some concerns about motions nos. 1 and 2 . {sent} paragraph ( 3 ) of motion no. 1 , standing in the name of the minister of supply and services ( mr. mcinnes ) , reads in part as follows : {sent} the governor in council may , in relation to persons who make the election referred to in paragraph (1)(e ) , make regulations -- {sent} further on it refers to very vague and non-specific regulatory producing powers . {sent} it also does not group the pension plans , mr. speaker . {sent} i think workers in other areas of crown corporations are looking to see what happens in this struggle in parliament and how the government and the house will respond to a very real dilemma . {sent} they have to look at costs between the time they stop working and the time they pass on . {sent} it seems to me that the minister and government members who have spoken have not really taken into account the kind of bombshells they have been throwing at the munitions workers . {sent} they started off by saying : " you will have to divest out of the plan -- cash out . " {sent} then the government moved to this extremely vague proposal which allows for some options . {sent} by being so non-specific it means that we as members of this house are not doing the job we should be doing , that of setting a blueprint . {sent} regardless of which party we belong to , the government has 211 members and can vote through whatever it wants . {sent} the government has done a terrible job in responding to the real concerns of the workers . {sent} let us now take a look at the proposal , which is somewhat better , motion no. 2 , brought forward by the hon. member who just spoke . {sent} it is something i do not like because it does not address the issue of pensions head on . {sent} let me read motion no. 2 : {sent} an employee of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of transfer , will have the right , on transferring to the new employer , either to : {sent} ( a ) choose to remain and continue as a contributor to the federal superannuation plan -- {sent} that sounds very reasonable . {sent} -- and the employee will pay both the employee 's and the employer 's shares of the required contributions to the plan ; or -- {sent} i want to come back to that part of the motion . {sent} ( b ) become a contributor to the pension plan as described in the agreement of purchase and sale between the government and the new employer {sent} the new employer is snc . {sent} let me come back to paragraph ( a ) of motion no. 2 , because i have some concerns about it . {sent} i am not as concerned as with the government amendment , but it is one that i think could really benefit from some clarity and drafting in that this will force the workers to renegotiate with snc as a result of paragraph ( a ) . {sent} it says the employee will pay both the employee 's and the employer 's shares of the required contribution . " {sent} x " being the annual cost to the employee and historically to the employer means that there will have to be a great deal of pressure brought on snc to live up to this . {sent} as was raised by the hon. member who just said down , the government , even under the present administration , is not applying the same kind of criteria to situations that are similar . {sent} it all depends on how much pressure is brought on them , and what kinds of co-operation they are getting from the purchaser of an operation such as canadian arsenals limited , and what kind of heat is created in the house of commons itself . {sent} there is a great deal more than could and should be done . {sent} it is something that canadians will have to reflect on , whether or not this is truly the fairest way possible for this kind of privatization to take place . {sent} the government has a majority . {sent} the house will recall that the motion we are now considering is aimed at amending bill c-87 , specifically with respect to the matter of pensions . {sent} we do not have that guarantee . {sent} we do not have much information dealing with the pension arrangements . {sent} we will be looking forward in committee to getting from the minister some of the answers to these questions . {sent} looking at motion no. 1 , i see that the person , namely the employee -- i will read subsection 12(e) : {sent} mr. speaker , the words that bother me are " in such form and manner as the minister directs " . {sent} but no ! {sent} the whole thing is to be decided by the minister , unilaterally . {sent} in this case , i find the proposed changes very weak and narrow in their application since negotiation is unilateral . {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended by adding immediately after line 34 at page 5 the following : {sent} " 12 . {sent} an employee of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of transfer , will have the right , on transferring to the new employer -- {sent} -- that is , snc -- {sent} mr. speaker , that is truly taking the bull by the horns . {sent} a different pension which , as i understand it , mr. speaker , has been suggested by certain people , would also be a solution . {sent} i do not want to revert to the issue of whether or not this company should be privatized . {sent} a decision has been made by the majority of the house of commons over our opposition . {sent} we must now talk about how this will be done , and whether it will be done fairly with regard to the workers . {sent} yet , until the government was forced to consider the matter , it did not consider that to be a problem . {sent} a crown corporation , as the epitome of responsibility , should provide a pattern for the way a corporation should deal with its employees in the 1980's . {sent} we have some specific concerns , mr. speaker . {sent} take as an example a worker aged 52 who intends to work until the age of 57 or 58 before retiring . {sent} it would probably be prudent for that worker to decide to keep his or her rights in the public service pension plan because of the indexation and other features . {sent} i could give more examples like that , and i seriously regret the fact that the parliamentary secretary was not prepared to permit questioning on some of these points . {sent} he forces me to raise them in debate without any give and take . {sent} after i asked the house for unanimous consent i talked to the parliamentary secretary . {sent} i regret to say that he remained reluctant . {sent} in addition , the parliamentary secretary must know that since the agreement of sale continues to be a secret document , and since the nuts and bolts of the proposal -- {sent} mr. daubney : point of order . {sent} mr. boudria : it has been made public . {sent} mr. cassidy : it has been been made public ? {sent} i apologize . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : there is no point of order , then . {sent} mr. cassidy : the hon. member for ottawa west ( mr. daubney ) is furthering the illusion that i am capable of being in all committees at once . {sent} i do my best , and i also trust my colleagues on these particular matters . {sent} my colleague , the hon. member for prince albert ( mr. hovdebo ) , did a very able job in this area , as i think the parliamentary secretary will agree . {sent} that is the legal position no matter what has been said by the parliamentary secretary . {sent} i have respect for him and i very much hope this government , which has not kept all of its promises , honours the parliamentary secretary 's word . {sent} i know he will do that personally , but his government has perhaps a little more clouded reputation than he has as an individual . {sent} as a legislative draft person i think i can understand why these things are there . {sent} however , given the climate of unease which these workers feel , it seems to me at the very least we could have had the regulations perused and approved in advance by the union in order to quiet their fears . {sent} instead of that , we have effectively a blank cheque kind of situation . {sent} at least that is how it is perceived . {sent} because of the contentiousness of the privatization issue , we have to look at perception as well as intention . {sent} the government 's intentions may well be 100 per cent honourable . {sent} it may say it has come up with the best solution it could . {sent} the union says it will negotiate to get the employers' share paid to the employees so they can pay it into the two plans concerned . {sent} that should be possible and it is a better way . {sent} that is why we can support the recommendations -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} does the house want me to put the question now or shall we wait ? {sent} mr. cassidy : i believe there are other speakers . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : it being 1.05 p.m. , i do now leave the chair until 2 p.m. this day . {sent} after recess {sent} the house resumed at 2.00 p.m. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member for kamloops-shuswap ( mr. riis ) . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : that was a surprise , mr. speaker . {sent} now i feel very uneasy . {sent} let me also point out that the decision to join motion nos. 1 , 2 and 3 together requires one to comment on the need for this grouping in the first place . {sent} the record should indicate clearly that the new democratic party opposes this bill for many reasons , not the least of which is that the government would want to cut itself off from canadian arsenals . {sent} canadian arsenals is a 100 per cent crown corporation established in 1945 for the purpose of returning the armament industry in canada from wartime to peacetime operations , as was required in those days . {sent} it has evolved into a corporation that produces munitions whose primary client is the government of canada . {sent} it is , by and large , an arm of the government since some 90 per cent of its munitions are sold to the government of canada . {sent} last year , canadian arsenals had a profit in excess of $ 11 million on sales in excess of $ 100 million . {sent} that is quite impressive . {sent} that crown corporation will not make $ 11 million next year as part of the government 's operation as a result of this bill . {sent} we have some difficulty understanding the priorities of the government , particularly of those government members who are concerned about the lack of government revenue . {sent} this crown corporation is very profitable and well run , at least in terms of profitability . {sent} as a matter of fact , i believe it was ranked third in canada for profitability . {sent} yet steps are being taken to cut this particular crown corporation adrift . {sent} it should be held up as ample proof of how a crown corporation works extremely well in terms of profitability . {sent} the major concern being expressed during the report stage of this bill involves the pension arrangements for 800 employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} this concern arises because of the government 's negligence in thinking the process through carefully . {sent} fortunately , in committee , thoughtful members raised the point that not enough attention had been given to the pension arrangements of the hundreds of employees involved . {sent} indeed , the government agreed that this had been overlooked to a certain degree . {sent} consequently , the first motion we are debating in this group was initiated by the government in recognition of this oversight . {sent} bill c-87 is extremely important because of its precedent-setting measures . {sent} the approach used in this bill will be used elsewhere as the government attempts to privatize various aspects of government operations . {sent} that is why we are particularly concerned about clause 12 . {sent} we are not simply dealing with the balance sheets or the facilities of canadian arsenals , we are concerned about what happens to the hundreds of employees in that operation . {sent} many employees of canadian arsenals have been contributing to pension plans for many years . {sent} indeed , that is the case . {sent} that is the reason for motion no. 2 in the name of the hon. member for glengarry -- prescott -- russell ( mr. boudria ) which states : {sent} " 12 . {sent} an employee of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of transfer , will have the right , on transferring to the new employer , either to : {sent} ( b ) become a contributor to the pension plan as described in the agreement of purchase and sale between the government and the new employer . " {sent} i understand that is similar to the arrangement one can make when on leave from the federal government . {sent} it is possible to make both contributions and continue the plan . {sent} such a procedure makes imminent sense in this situation and that is why we support motion no. 2 in the name of the hon. member for glengarry -- prescott -- russell . {sent} i , and i know other members were disappointed when members on the government side opposed the request by the hon. member for ottawa centre ( mr. cassidy ) to ask the parliamentary secretary a number of questions . {sent} this is essentially the last opportunity to clarify some important questions , yet those members simply want the report stage debate to take place . {sent} while that debate may be appropriate , surely this is such a critical issue in terms of the precedent that we should be permitted an opportunity to direct some specific questions to the parliamentary secretary . {sent} i greatly regret that decision by government members . {sent} in conclusion , let me simply say that there is much unease with respect to the employees involved . {sent} there are concerns which have been registered in committee and have now been raised in this report stage debate . {sent} there is a whole range of unanswered questions . {sent} before this round of motions is completed , perhaps an hon. member on the government side will rise and respond to some of the questions posed . {sent} if not , then we will have to say that the process being followed is incomplete and inappropriate on such a critical and important bill . {sent} because of the questions which have been posed by my colleagues , i anticipate that after sitting down i will hear from some hon. members opposite in terms of explanation . {sent} i believe what is happening is that the government is moving forward with its ideological strightjacket without giving any real consideration to what will happen to the number of people who are presently working for canadian arsenals . {sent} the hon. member for kamloops-shuswap ( mr. riis ) indicated that this is not just an isolated concern . {sent} yesterday morning we read that cn intends to sell off cn route to three investors from toronto . {sent} i asked the minister of transport ( mr. mazankowski ) earlier today in the house what the government 's policy is for the people working for a crown corporation such as cn route . {sent} what is going to happen to those people , their jobs , their pension benefits and their future after spending so many years working for the government of canada through one of its crown corporations ? {sent} the government 's philosophy is to get rid of crown corporations . {sent} as a political party and as the government , it has the right to its own philosophy . {sent} no one can quarrel with that . {sent} but it wo ; uld be nice on occasions if it would admit what its policies are and even nicer if it would sometimes carry them out . {sent} in this case i do not happen to believe it is a good policy . {sent} the government has a policy to privatize despite the fact that it involves selling a crown corporation which is making money , and that the major client of the crown corporation is the government of canada . {sent} what we are doing is taking a crown corporation which is selling its goods to the government and putting it into the hands of a bunch of private individuals who wish to make a profit . {sent} but from whom will they be making a profit ? {sent} even if the conservatives are right in their desire to sell off some crown corporations , it does not make sense to sell this particular crown corporation . {sent} there are crown corporations which are in effect competing with private enterprise for a public market . {sent} they are competing for the purchase orders of other consumer groups and industries . {sent} but this is not the case with canadian arsenal . {sent} we also know from the nature of the arms business that it is basically governments throughout the world who buy the product . {sent} but let us look at the employees of that crown corporation . {sent} the amendment before us this afternoon deals in the main with what is going to happen to the people who are working for a canadian crown corporation . {sent} we know that as a result of the sale these people will face the potential danger of losing their pension benefits , despite the amendment brought forward by the government earlier today . {sent} that is one particular concern . {sent} the government really wants to sell off crown corporation after crown corporation and cn route is now on the selling block . {sent} we know the workers there are going to be affected . {sent} there was an article in this morning 's globe and mail that a number of cn 's route workers will lose their jobs . {sent} considering this result , why does the government not have a policy on how it will deal with the employees of these crown corporations when they are sold ? {sent} that is the case here where we are going from federal law to the provincial law of the province of quebec . {sent} the government has an obligation to be concerned about what happens to the employees who are at the present time employees of the people of canada . {sent} if this industry was the only industry the government was going to privatize , it would be of major concern , because we are concerned about the workers of canadian arsenals . {sent} yet the government has not told us what its policy is for the workers . {sent} it has not even said what the policies are for the communities in which these industries are located . {sent} it has not told us what its responsibility is as it gets out of certain endeavours . {sent} that is my major concern . {sent} no one has done that . {sent} members of the government get up and talk about a namby-pamby amendment which they have brought in at the dying stages of discussion on the legislation . {sent} the amendment deals with one set of workers in a particular way , but it does not explain where the government wants to go in the long run . {sent} we have already heard from representatives of the workers to the effect that the amendment which is before us is not good enough . {sent} we know that to be the case . {sent} however , it is even more worrisome that the government has not said where it will go in the future . {sent} i realize that my time is about to expire . {sent} at that time hon. members may recall that we were questioning why the government was proceeding without giving canadians the benefit of information . {sent} in effect , the government was saying : " yes , it is a good price for which we sold this particular company , but we will not tell canadians what that price is . {sent} just trust us " . {sent} that was the philosophy which characterized the approach of the conservative government during the debate at second reading . {sent} however , i regret that at report stage i need to stand in my place again and make a similar pitch on a different issue . {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended by adding immediately after line 34 at page 5 the following : {sent} " 12 . {sent} an employee of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of transfer , will have the right , on transferring to the new employer , either to : {sent} ( b ) become a contributor to the pension plan as described in the agreement of purchase and sale between the government and the new employer . " {sent} what the hon. member is attempting to do by putting forward this motion is have the government come clean with the employees of this company . {sent} this would give them some sense of assurance , some sense of continuity and a sense of respect and dignity in terms of their future with this particular company . {sent} this is to what the amendment refers . {sent} the amendment speaks in defence of not only the public service alliance of canada , the particular union involved , but the 800 workers , some of whom have spent a great number of years in the employ of this company . {sent} that individual , that breadwinner , wants to know , not tomorrow or the month after but today how his pension contributions will be affected . {sent} he wants to know what kind of choices and opportunities he will have in terms of these pension contributions . {sent} this is to what the amendment speaks . {sent} the government has said in a holus-bolus way : " we will move a motion which will allow us to make an order in council sometime in the future which will dictate what kind of arrangement vis-à-vis pension contributions these 800 employees will have " . {sent} that is not the right way to deal with individuals who have been contributing to the system for a number of years . {sent} that is not the way by which families can build their futures . {sent} that is not the way the government should be conducting its business on behalf of canadians . {sent} it does not speak very highly of the motives of the government . {sent} if it wants to make a decision to sell this company which has been profitable , then that is the choice of the government . {sent} of course , that is what it is here for . {sent} we on this side of the house have pointed out options with respect to why it should not choose to exercise that alternative . {sent} however , if it is to move in this direction , after having made a clear decision to take the privatization route , then for goodness' sake let us have an infrastructure in keeping with that decision . {sent} why not think of the workers ? {sent} why should they be left out of the equation ? {sent} why should their pension contributions be left simply to hang for some future discretionary measure within the minister responsible ? {sent} that is not the way business should be conducted when it involves the livelihood of people . {sent} it is unfair to say : " we will give them the benefit of one year to make up their minds whether or not they want to pursue the pension plan programs which we will be designing and offering them " . {sent} it should also be noted that this window of 12 months will begin once the legislation is passed . {sent} by the time the legislation passes , and by the time the government introduces its order in council , it may very well be that 6 , 8 , 10 or 11 months will have passed . {sent} therefore , that window by which an individual employee can make an intelligent decision for his family will be shortened . {sent} the one year , which might sound very attractive now , will , in fact , be watered down . {sent} individuals in treasury board have been quoted in various journals and newspapers as having said that the government has proceeded in a very unorganized and haphazard way , as far as pension contributions are concerned . {sent} we are not trying to be obstructionist . {sent} we are not putting forward opposite views on how the government should be proceeding simply because we are in opposition . {sent} we are doing so because there needs to be someone to speak for the workers in terms of this particular issue in order that their concerns be brought in and articulated . {sent} they have been trying to make their concerns known to the government . {sent} this is why we are asking members of the house to consider seriously motion no. 2 put forward by my colleague . {sent} it is a fair and responsible amendment . {sent} it is one which speaks to the investment workers have made over the years and the one they wish to continue to make in future years . {sent} what is so wrong with that ? {sent} mr. boudria : there are three . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : it is 10 minutes . {sent} mr. robinson : in the course of my 10-minute intervention on this fundamental question i wish to take the opportunity to address some of the concerns raised by these motions . {sent} i had the opportunity of meeting with many of the workers of canadian arsenals who , as the house will know , were here on the hill on wednesday of this week . {sent} they expressed concerns with respect to the possibility that they might lose certain employee pension benefits . {sent} as we know , this is a fundamental issue of concern to these employees who have served canadian arsenals faithfully for many years . {sent} the possible effect of the provisions of this bill would be to seriously jeopardize the pension position of the employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} that is why we heard the chant on the steps of parliament hill : " on veut la compensation , on veut la compensation ! " {sent} the compensation could amount to something in the order of $ 17,000 per year to the individuals who have been affected by this legislation . {sent} in examining the provisions of this bill , i note that the government , in the dying gasp of this debate , has put forward a motion which moves some distance toward meeting the concerns of the employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} however , i would like to support motion no. 2 , the motion that would permit employees of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of the transfer of the company , to make an election . {sent} the fundamental issue here is that this would give the employees in question a choice . {sent} obviously that would permit them to continue to protect the pension rights which have accrued to them through many years of faithful , loyal , dedicated and hardworking service to canadian arsenals . {sent} we must ask why it is that the government seems to be obsessed with the notion that the private sector can do things better than the public sector . {sent} privatization is the current buzz-word of the conservative government . {sent} why is it that the government believes a company which is motivated by the pursuit of profit and the pursuit of maximizing its return on shares is better able to manage this company than the public sector ? {sent} i believe that the purpose of public policy is to serve the interests of canadians , certainly not to serve the interests of a small group of elite corporate shareholders . {sent} they should be open , accountable and charged with a clear and definable mandate . {sent} in fact , canadian arsenals has been a very profitable company . {sent} in 1985 , it had a net income of $ 11.3 million on sales of $ 103.8 million . {sent} its return on equity was an excellent 21.4 per cent in 1984-85 . {sent} the profits of this company were being used to help reduce the deficit of the government . {sent} the government has been cutting back on family allowances and transfer payments for health care and post-secondary education . {sent} one would have thought that the government would have welcomed a contribution of $ 11 million to the public purse to help reduce the deficit . {sent} it is reasonable to assume that the approach which is being taken by the government in bill c-87 will very likely serve as a model for other government privatization efforts . {sent} for that reason , as well as the reasons i have discussed previously and which my colleagues have so eloquently placed on the record , we want to make sure that we give bill c-87 the best possible effort so that it may be a good model . {sent} that is why we have urged the government to recognize that while it has moved forward with an amendment , it does not go far enough to protect the pension contributions of the employees involved . {sent} i would note as well that the jeopardization of the retirement pensions of canadian arsenals employees is but one of a number of concerns we have raised in the course of this debate . {sent} the public service alliance made representations with respect to this bill , and i would note here the role played by vice president jean bergeron . {sent} the public service alliance has spoken out very clearly with respect to the concern about long-standing contractual rights of employees and the concern that these contractual rights be protected during the transition from public to private enterprise . {sent} the sale in question does require a jurisdictional change in the area of labour relations from the federal jurisdiction to the provincial jurisdiction of quebec . {sent} at this time the employees are covered under the provisions of the canada labour code . {sent} while snc , the company which is buying canadian arsenals , has made commitments to honour all of the contractual obligations between canadian arsenals and its employees , it would be far preferable if those commitments were enshrined in the legislation . {sent} as well , there is a problem in this legislation with respect to the grievance and arbitration of rights of the employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} the sale is adding to the degree of confusion and uncertainty that is involved . {sent} that is a question which no member on that side of the house has yet addressed , and it is a question which we in this party believe must be addressed . {sent} as i have indicated , it cannot be argued that there has been a failure in the corporate responsibility of this firm to its shareholders who are ultimately the people of canada or to its employees . {sent} after all , it has a good record . {sent} i know that other speakers will be talking about the record of canadian arsenals in this regard . {sent} i want to note another concern . {sent} by far the largest customer of canadian arsenals limited is in fact the department of national defence . {sent} it has been most beneficial to have that close working relationship between canadian arsenals and the department of national defence . {sent} as it now stands , the privatization process could very well jeopardize that relationship . {sent} we have to ask ourselves more fundamental questions in terms of the rights of the employees and of the pension plan . {sent} the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret the hon. member 's time has expired ; i would love to listen to him all day . {sent} mrs. lucie pépin ( outremont ) : mr. speaker , i rise in support of motion no. 2 which reads as follows : {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended by adding immediately after line 34 at page 5 the following : {sent} " 12 . {sent} an employee of the corporation , as of the day prior to the date of transfer , will have the right , on transferring to the new employer , either to : {sent} ( b ) become a contributor to the pension plan as described in the agreement of the purchase and sale between the government and the new employer . " {sent} mr. speaker , i should like to draw your attention to the fact that 50 per cent of the employees of canadian arsenals limited are women . {sent} therefore , taxes would be imposed on 50 per cent of the wives of men who work for the corporation and they would not be eligible for pension benefits . {sent} then as employees women would be doubly taxed because they would also lose their retirement pension . {sent} for quite some time now we have been debating bill c-62 on employment equity . {sent} something else is also very interesting . {sent} i am now a member of the committee on daycare . {sent} we have had the katie cooke report on daycare which was tabled recently in this house . {sent} the government is being asked to encourage companies to provide daycare space or to open daycares centres . {sent} we have also been told that this will be a priority for the government . {sent} did the government discuss the fact that it would have been possible to create employment equity as well as provide spaces in daycare centres ? {sent} if not , this shows that we are dealing with mere amateurs approach , because the contract was prepared hastily and the government has been remiss in its duty . {sent} that is very important . {sent} these are the amendments now under discussion . {sent} i ask the government to act and not simply to put up a smoke screen . {sent} this is one of the first times that we see that this bill deals with the privatization of a company . {sent} was employment equity discussed as one of the conditions of purchase ? {sent} has there been some provision to protect the spouses of the workers ? {sent} also , as concerns women , will they be hit by double taxation on their pensions ? {sent} i would like the government to show us that it is being serious for once instead of relying on rhetoric . {sent} if indeed it is serious , i must support motion no. 2 . {sent} mr. speaker , i do not simply want to have a discussion with my conservative colleague who says that the liberal government did not pass any legislation to achieve employment equity . {sent} the liberal government passed some excellent laws on the status of women . {sent} canada has been one of the most progressive countries in this regard . {sent} you always tell us that you are doing a lot for women , for instance that when appointing new board of direction . {sent} well ! {sent} you appointed 16 men out of 17 members . {sent} on another board made up of ten members , you appointed ten men . {sent} you should start by practicing what you preach . {sent} this is the best proof we could have ! {sent} you should put this principle in practice in the case of a privatization and show that you are able to protect the rights of women . {sent} if the conservative government can do so , i shall publicly recognize it , but for the moment , i think that you are making a mistake . {sent} it is a people or personnel problem rather than a privatization problem . {sent} the employees want to maintain their present status under the public service superannuation act . {sent} they understand quite well that the government does not want that link between a private company and the public service superannuation act . {sent} their first request was for the government to pay both shares . {sent} however , there was a counter offer by the government , that it would make an offer through order in council sometime in the future . {sent} it was a fairly hollow gesture , one which we could not expect loyal employees who worked for a long time for this important corporation to accept . {sent} we have not really dealt with the link between the department of national defence and canadian arsenals limited or how bill c-87 will affect that long standing relationship . {sent} the government was asking the employees to give it a blank cheque . {sent} it said that sometime in the future it would do something for them . {sent} it did not know what that would be ; it did not even hint at it . {sent} in any event , the government told them that it would do something for them in the future and that they had a year in which to make up their minds on whether they would accept the offer . {sent} it was not really a fair way to treat loyal employees who had been working for canadian arsenals for a long time . {sent} on the other hand , the people affected said that they would pay both shares if the government would not do it . {sent} they made that offer to the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) . {sent} he was asked to respond to that most magnanimous offer by the employees , but he has not responded . {sent} so we are here today debating an amendment of my colleague , the hon. member for glengarry-prescott-russell ( mr. boudria ) , to do the very things the employees want to do . {sent} i think it is incumbent upon the government to accept the offer . {sent} it is a fair and reasonable one and it is magnanimous on the part of the employees to make it . {sent} there is a wider issue here , mr. speaker . {sent} if we are going to have a sound economy we have to have better employer-employee relations . {sent} there has to be a new relationship with labour . {sent} if the government is serious about that it should lead the way by showing that kind of attitude toward its employees . {sent} the government should set the tone in the country by example . {sent} we have seen strikes across the country . {sent} we are presently , i hope , in the final stages of one in my own province on the very same issue . {sent} the public servants in newfoundland have virtually brought the province to a standstill and have negotiated directly in public with the premier . {sent} they have forced concessions from the newfoundland government . {sent} the matter is still not resolved , but it is a case in point . {sent} governments have to set the tone for the new economic reality . {sent} there has to be a new relationship with labour . {sent} there has to be peace with labour and you cannot do it by confrontation or by walking all over people . {sent} you have to sit down and be reasonable with people , particularly those who have served the government and the people of canada faithfully for a long , long time . {sent} i say to the government and to this parliament that it is incumbent upon us to support the amendment from my colleague from glengarry-prescott-russell . {sent} he has worked long and hard for many of the people , many of whom live in this area . {sent} most of the people who are affected , as i understand it , are employees in montreal and st. augustin near quebec city . {sent} the employees in question deserve fair treatment . {sent} they are making a reasonable proposal and i think it is incumbent upon the government to accept it . {sent} there is that wider issue , namely , the new relationship with the working people in the country . {sent} we are facing rapid change . {sent} people feel threatened and insecure . {sent} neither politicians nor businessmen -- in fact , no one is exempt from that insecurity brought about by the rapid changes in society . {sent} we have a chance to do something for these people . {sent} we should act today by supporting this amendment and showing the workers that we are keeping faith with them . {sent} mr. dan heap ( spadina ) : mr. speaker , i am opposed to bill c-87 . {sent} i oppose this measure as does my party because it will be harmful for the people of canada as well as for the men and women who work for this corporation . {sent} it is a company that stands and ranks well with other canadian companies . {sent} it is a company that provides a vital service . {sent} the sale ought to be delayed until at least the proper interests of the employees can be preserved . {sent} i would welcome any possible amendments to serve the interests of the employees of the company and the people before this bill is passed . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the question is on motion no. 1 . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : in my opinion the yeas have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : pursuant to standing order 114(11) , the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred . {sent} since motion no. 3 is consequential to motion no. 1 , a vote on motion no. 1 will apply as per the speaker 's ruling . {sent} a vote on motion no. 1 will dispose of motion no. 2 . {sent} motions nos. 4 and 5 are identical . {sent} the chair will select one . {sent} mr. cassidy : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} i believe you also have to take a vote on motion no. 2 which has not been covered since it is not established whether or not the full house on monday will support motion no. 1 . {sent} as i understand it , since this has not -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} we will do that when there is a deferred division . {sent} the hon. member for ottawa centre ( mr. cassidy ) should realize that once we have gone through all the debates on monday , or whenever we are finished with the debate , we will do that . {sent} mr. cassidy : motion no. 2 will be voted on , mr. speaker ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : yes. {sent} mr. cassidy : may i rise to move -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i have selected motion no. 4 . {sent} mr. mike cassidy ( ottawa centre ) moved : {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended in clause 12 by striking out lines 35 to 37 at page 5 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 12 . {sent} this act shall come into force after december 31 , 1987 , on a date to be fixed by proclamation . " {sent} he said : mr. speaker , the bill as it stands right now calls for it to come into force on a day to be fixed by proclamation . {sent} the government is saying that there are no problems left with this particular act of privatization that deserve to be resolved . {sent} the minister does not look like a real tory because his suit is not blue . {sent} the problems which exist here are not related to snc . {sent} snc , to some extent , is an unwilling and hapless victim of the government 's mismanagement of this act of privatization . {sent} the minister and the government must act differently if they intend to continue with the privatization and get co-operation . {sent} after this experience , when employees are affected , rather than looking for ways to co-operate with the government 's intention , which the government does have the parliamentary majority to put into law , people will drag their heels . {sent} in this particular case that was not at issue because there was no effective consultation for the longest time with the workforce and the unions affected . {sent} if anyone wants to complain about delay , as they have to me , they should look at the government 's record on this issue . {sent} the announcement of the intention to privatize canadian arsenals was made in the budget on may 23 . {sent} bids were submitted and received on august 9 . {sent} there followed a bidding war in which the government tried to get the preferred bidders to up the ante , a process from which snc eventually emerged with the government 's approval . {sent} it was not until early december that the government announced that it intended to act and introduced the privatization bill in the house of commons . {sent} i received anxious submissions from snc last november and december asking what the ndp could do in order to expedite the bill , as they really wanted to have it passed . {sent} i had to tell them that there was nothing i could do because the carriage of the bill was in the hands of the government . {sent} i suggested that the people from snc should sit down immediately with the representatives of the workers involved to start to iron out the problems . {sent} i warned them that if they could resolve the concerns of the workforce , it would certainly help our party to be a good deal more co-operative with regard to getting the bill passed . {sent} that , in fact , did not occur . {sent} snc finally got around to talking with the union , but the government tried its best to avoid having any meaningful discussions . {sent} we have , therefore , the spectacle of legislated amendments on an absolutely essential part of the process . {sent} if there has been delay , the government is responsible for it . {sent} the reason for the delay is that the government did not know whether it intended to privatize , or how it intended to do it . {sent} fundamental questions have yet to be addressed in the case of teleglobe . {sent} the rates which teleglobe canada can charge are part of a regulated environment . {sent} if teleglobe goes into the private sector , its income and , therefore , its profitability , will depend on how the government intends to administer this regulated environment . {sent} if international tariffs for communications are deregulated , or sharply reduced , teleglobe will no longer be very attractive . {sent} it is very difficult to sell it , given that uncertainty . {sent} with regard to canadian arsenals , we wondered why we would sell it when it was anticipated that it was going to continue to be more and more profitable . {sent} it was one of the fastest growing companies in terms of profit growth in the last five years in the entire financial post index . {sent} we wondered why we would sell a winner , and the government has never answered that question . {sent} the other question we had was with regard to dealing with the employees . {sent} this has not been done either . {sent} that is why i have moved this amendment which calls for the act to come into force after december 31 , 1987 , on a date to be fixd by proclamation . {sent} these problems have also been raised by their unions repeatedly and consistently since the bill was tabled in december . {sent} if motion no. 1 passes on monday there will be a resolution of the pension issue , albeit not a very good resolution . {sent} the fact that there has not been a satisfctory resolution in that area raises questions in my mind . {sent} another issue is that ammunition produced by canadian arsenals has found its way to such places as contra camps on the borders of nicaragua . {sent} yet , there has been no insistence with regard to controlling where snc and its new subsidiary will be able to sell ammunition and other military products once it is no longer publicly owned . {sent} these issues ought to be resolved before a sale , rather than after . {sent} i very much regret that the government did not see fit to resolve those problems before passing the bill . {sent} for those reasons i have moved that this matter be deferred and that the bill not be proclaimed until after the end of december , 1987 , which will allow ample time for the resolution of these problems . {sent} however , for now i think it is necessary to pass this motion . {sent} we will feel compelled to continue to make proposals for delay until these issues are better handled . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} i will recognize the hon. member for glengarry -- presscott -- russell ( mr. boudria ) . {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , we are almost ready for the question , but we do have a few other points which we must bring to your attention . {sent} mrs. mailly : on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} the acting speaker ( m. paproski ) : the hon. member for gatineau . {sent} mrs. mailly : i am questioning the relevancy of naming all those members who are not now in this house , and pretending to speak on their behalf . {sent} mr. boudria : i never said they were not present . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : it is friday afternoon . {sent} i was paying attention to the hon. member 's speech and he never mentioned who was or was not in the house . {sent} he has been here for close to two years now and i know he realizes that hon. members do not mention who is or who is not in the chamber . {sent} we will just leave it at that . {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , all members are here . {sent} the ones who have not spoken yet are too busy doing constituency work . {sent} it is not because they are not here . {sent} i really resent the hon. member saying that her colleagues are not here . {sent} it is just not fair to them and the record should show that she is being unfair towards her colleagues by doing what she just did . {sent} not that i would mention it myself , but now that she has brought it up i cannot really disagree with her . {sent} i will leave it at that . {sent} mrs. mailly : on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member for gatineau . {sent} mrs. mailly : mr. speaker , i believe the hon. member has just said that this bill was most important . {sent} i would therefore particularly like to hear his comments on that , rather than having him play his childish little games . {sent} mr. boudria : i am not playing games , you are . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i know the hon. member will now get back to the motion . {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , that is exactly what i was going to do before i was so rudely interrupted . {sent} i am glad to hear a contribution from the hon. member in this debate , albeit a brief contribution . {sent} mrs. mailly : i spoke on it and you know it . {sent} we all spoke on it . {sent} mr. boudria : mr. speaker , i want to refer to a profile of the employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} i know the hon. member is listening very attentively , as she usually does . {sent} the average age of employees of canadian arsenals is 33.87 years . {sent} the reason i bring this to your attention at this time is that a number of these employees are quite young and at the same time they have a fair level of seniority in the company . {sent} the delay being proposed here will surely give time to the government and everyone else to reflect upon what they want to do and hopefully propose something better for the employees . {sent} let me give you a few examples of just what damage we are talking about regarding loss of benefits for the employees . {sent} i know that the vice-president of the public service alliance of canada has raised this issue with the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) . {sent} the minister made a solemn promise . {sent} you will recognize and recall , as do i , that a tory promise is a pretty important thing . {sent} that tory minister promised he would get back to the vice-president of the public service alliance of canada by yesterday at two o'clock . {sent} i know this is going to be hard to believe but that tory cabinet minister did not respond . {sent} mr. bradley : it is in the mail . {sent} mr. boudria : no , mr. speaker . {sent} he broke his promise , as unbelievable as that may sound . {sent} the tories have not broken a promise today , of course , but they have practically every other day since they came into office . {sent} that is what just happened a few moments ago , just behind the chamber here . {sent} that is a very sad case . {sent} i know the parliamentary secretary , who is heckling , will take the opportunity to make a profound speech -- {sent} mr. bradley : not heckling , just clarifying . {sent} mr. boudria : -- a little later this afternoon . {sent} an employee aged 29 with 12 years of service with canadian arsenals will be losing $ 17,213.07 a year by the time he or she is pensioned . {sent} that is the difference between the two pension plans . {sent} the parliamentary secretary said earlier today that the snc pension is comparable to other similar industries . {sent} that is a very interesting statement because how many other similar industries are there in canada ? {sent} one . {sent} just one . {sent} mr. bradley : five . {sent} mr. boudria : there is only one similar industry in canada and it is known as ivi . {sent} do you know who owns ivi ? {sent} snc , the same people buying this company . {sent} so what kind of sense does it make to make those kinds of comparisons ? {sent} i submit that it is probably true that the pension plans are comparable . {sent} it is true that snc is a good employer . {sent} that is not the point . {sent} it is not snc that is a bad employer , it is the government of canada . {sent} it is this tory government which is a bad employer by letting down the people who work for it . {sent} that is what is wrong . {sent} all the tory members in this house , all 211 of them , those who are here right now , every one of them , i am sure , deep down in their hearts agrees with me . {sent} i am sure the hon. member who represents that riding would want to speak on behalf of his constituents . {sent} or he should . {sent} however , they will not hold their breath because it just may be that the tory members i have just described will not seize this occasion to speak on behalf of the people they represent . {sent} why is it we had a hard time getting even a response to a phone call from the employees ? {sent} i cannot understand that . {sent} it is my hope that in the next few moments all conservative members of parliament will seize this opportunity and tell the government it is time to come to its senses and act in a proper way towards the employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} i remember when i was a boy ... {sent} mrs. mailly : that was a long time ago ! {sent} mr. waddell : yes , a long time ago . {sent} i used to live in toronto , in port credit , ontario , in etobicoke , near lakeshore , west of toronto , and we had a cal plant there . {sent} many people , many workers worked for canadian arsenals limited . {sent} i understand that it has cut down considerably . {sent} as i was saying in french , this was a great corporation which had many factories that produced a lot of munitions for canadian soldiers and soldiers of other countries during the war . {sent} as a young boy , i remember seeing the plants in my area and talking to some of the older men who worked there . {sent} i am afraid that if the government privatizes canadian arsenals it will destroy an excellent crown corporation . {sent} while i am not saying it will happen , the owners could rationalize and we would not see any canadian aresenals limited at all . {sent} motion no. 4 states : {sent} that bill c-87 , be amended in clause 12 by striking out lines 35 to 37 at page 5 and substituting the following therefor : {sent} " 12 . {sent} this act shall come into force after december 31 , 1987 , on a date to be fixed by proclamation . " {sent} this motion was moved by my seat-mate , the hon. member for ottawa centre ( mr. cassidy ) . {sent} it postpones the coming into force of the act . {sent} i prefer that canadian arsenals not be privatized at all . {sent} however , if it is to be sold , surely the government owes some guarantees to the workers of canadian arsenals . {sent} after listening to some government members , i cannot help but say advisedly that the workers are lucky in a sense because at least we can debate this in parliament . {sent} my constituency office in vancouver -- kingsway has an open house on the weekends . {sent} i have seen cases of constituents who work in private sector companies that have been bought up or merged with another company . {sent} my constituents have told me of the difficulties they have in adjusting to a takeover or sale of a company . {sent} sometimes members who are lawyers , doctors and businessmen and have many job options forget how tough it is on the workers . {sent} we must not forget that there are many workers in places like canadian arsenals who have worked for years and believe they have some job security . {sent} it is a scary world when one is faced with finding another job , yet this happens often with a lot of companies . {sent} a union can be succeeded by another union so that there is some protection . {sent} occasionally , however , that protection does not exist , and this is a good example . {sent} the hon. member for ottawa centre is a tireless worker for public servants . {sent} this causes insecurity and is an unsettling situation for these workers who are worried about losing their jobs . {sent} they cannot simply go hunting . {sent} i see the hon. member for nunatsiaq ( mr. suluk ) taking copious notes about my speech , preparing to reply when i am finished . {sent} i understand that he just returned from hunting in the canadian arctic . {sent} he knows that it is nice to get out and go hunting but we have to work too . {sent} my point is that there must be job security for the workers . {sent} it is my understanding that the snc group of montreal has already manufactured munitions as part of its other investments . {sent} it could give canadian arsenals a low priority . {sent} this would affect the workers , and they want to know about it . {sent} they want to see a corporate plan , and such a plan should be filed with the house , outlining what snc plans to do with this company . {sent} that is the least the government owes to workers in a crown corporation which it is privatizing . {sent} one might ask why the new democratic party is challenging this legislation and moving these amendments . {sent} quite frankly , this is perhaps the first of many privatization moves . {sent} what will happen when the government privatizes petro-canada which is 100 times bigger than canadian arsenals ? {sent} we want to ensure that there is a procedure that at the very minimum will benefit the workers . {sent} we want to know whether there will be a corporate plan . {sent} we would like to see successor trade union rights . {sent} we want to know what will happen to the pension plans . {sent} the pension plan is a cause for concern in the private sector when there are mergers or takeovers . {sent} problems arise with early retirement plans being carried over from one company to another . {sent} mr. bradley : read the motion . {sent} mr. waddell : these matters have to be considered . {sent} the member asks me to read things . {sent} i invite him to read the submission made by the public service alliance of canada to the legislative committee on this bill . {sent} mr. bradley : i was there . {sent} where were you ? {sent} mr. waddell : perhaps the hon. member will recall this . {sent} i invite him to look at clause 27 concerning mobility rights and clause 22 concerning the rights of employees . {sent} these are matters about which i am concerned . {sent} mr. bradley : that is the reason for the amendment . {sent} mr. waddell : that is why the member for ottawa centre put forward this particular clause . {sent} the public service alliance stated at page 8 of its brief that in clause 2 in the general area of employee rights , confusion abounds . {sent} bill c-87 is silent on the issue . {sent} despite the fact that the sale requires a justification change for labour relations purposes from canada to quebec , there are no transitional provisions to protect the collective agreement . {sent} i invite the hon. member to speak about this . {sent} mr. bradley : i already spoke . {sent} i regret that i was not here to have the benefit of his speech . {sent} mr. crosbie : you are floundering , ian . {sent} mr. waddell : i know that he is a senior member of the house . {sent} mr. robinson : the minister of justice ( mr. crosbie ) wants to speak . {sent} mr. crosbie : you are floundering . {sent} mr. waddell : i would not let the minister of justice speak . {sent} not only would he privatize the corporation , he would move it to newfoundland . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : at this stage , i regret that the hon. member 's time has expired . {sent} mr. waddell : perhaps i could have unanimous consent of the house for more time . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : what is it the hon. member wanted ? {sent} mr. waddell : i asked for unanimous consent to extend my time , but i heard someone say no . {sent} hon. chas. l. caccia ( davenport ) : mr. speaker , the motion before us is one with which i fully agree , namely to postpone this measure until december , 1987 . {sent} in that sense i am not convinced that this bill has been the subject of a thorough and thoughtful analysis . {sent} in the case of canadian arsenals , as i understand it , the competitive situation in the market-place would be reduced because canadian arsenals would be purchased by a similar company thereby reducing competition in the market-place . {sent} second , i cannot understand why the canadian government cannot own a successful company where the returns go back to canadian taxpayers . {sent} petro-canada has done extremely well and is perhaps a good example of how companies owned by the public sector can be competitive with the private sector . {sent} it can do that very effectively . {sent} that view has been expressed by a lot of liberals before me . {sent} the suggestion to put off this decision until 1987 has merit from the point of view of the people affected . {sent} there is a fundamental principle at stake . {sent} it seems to me , therefore , that a clause needs to be inserted in the bill which deals with the management and treatment of the social security enjoyed by employers of canadian arsenals until the point of sale . {sent} i would challenge any tory back-bencher in this house to say that there should not be the continuation of the same benefits to employees of canadian arsenals once it changes ownership . {sent} i am sure they could not say it . {sent} that leads me to believe that this bill was hastily drafted and certain considerations were not examined before it was introduced in this house . {sent} we should not do that to the employees of any company . {sent} while we are all in favour of positive precedents , this one is negative . {sent} it would set a precedent for similar losses to be incurred by employees of other crown-owned agencies or companies like teleglobe , for example . {sent} i am sure teleglobe has been mentioned by speakers before me . {sent} should the time come , perish the thought , that the government sells teleglobe to the private sector , the employees of that company would have the same fate . {sent} the government could say : " the precedent has been set . {sent} it was accepted at that time and we will roll along on the same route " . {sent} it is important , therefore , to ensure that these considerations are made part of this bill . {sent} the social considerations which affect the employees' right now have been raised by the unions . {sent} they ask how this will affect employees of other crown corporations which may come under the process of privatization . {sent} as i said earlier , i am not a great believer in this process at all . {sent} i think canadians have been served well by teleglobe , canadian arsenals and petro-canada in public ownwership . {sent} there is nothing wrong with these crown corporations being owned by canadians . {sent} there is actually much to be gained from that approach . {sent} it provides a balance in a particular sector between public and private ownership , which is very healthy and adds to the competitive spirit . {sent} what the government is inadvertently doing , i suspect , is reducing the competitiveness in this particular field . {sent} one can ask why the hon. member for davenport would put forward such a notion without really basing it upon his own experience . {sent} first , it happened at deer lodge hospital in manitoba , a hospital in new westminster , british columbia and a hospital in halifax , nova scotia . {sent} mr. bradley : they are different cases . {sent} mr. caccia : yes , i can see they are different cases in different provinces , but it tells me that there is the political will at the provincial level . {sent} it is only a question of political will . {sent} it is only a question of giving these considerations to the bill at a time when it is to be introduced . {sent} in conclusion , i must say that i support the motion to postpone this decision . {sent} the impression i have is that the government did not think about the implications . {sent} it did not have , perhaps , the experience to include these types of clauses to protect the benefits of the existing employees . {sent} the government still can do so , however , and ought to do so in consideration of the fact that it would set a precedent for other corporations which the government , perish the thought , may intend to sell . {sent} i see that you are indicating that my time is up , but i have only spoken for 10 minutes . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret that i have to call the hon. member to order . {sent} i love to listen to him but he only has 10 minutes in this particular debate . {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : it is always a challenge , of course , to follow the hon. member for davenport ( mr. caccia ) , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. robinson : i rise on a point of order . {sent} i seek clarification in terms of the speaking order . {sent} i know that my colleague , the hon. member for spadina ( mr. heap ) , sought to speak at this point . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : since the hon. member did not rise , i recognized the hon. member for york west ( mr. marchi ) . {sent} mr. heap : i was rising . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret that i did not see the hon. member for spadina rise . {sent} if he wants to speak , then i will recognize him , if that is all right with the hon. member for york west . {sent} i do not think the practice of yielding the floor to another member should be a practice to follow . {sent} however , we will do it today . {sent} the hon. member for spadina ( mr. heap ) , on debate . {sent} mr. dan heap ( spadina ) : mr. speaker , i thank the hon. member for york west ( mr. marchi ) for yielding the floor to me . {sent} there must be more time to give it proper consideration and , perhaps , even to come back for certain amendments which might be quickly dealt with once they have been properly discussed . {sent} the respect in which the interests of the country are not well served is that there has been no clear reason shown why the company needs to be sold or why it should be sold . {sent} it has been successful . {sent} their jobs are about as secure as any jobs can be in the country . {sent} to start changing ownership without giving a clear reason for it does not make very much sense , especially in this day and age when companies which acquire their competitors often shut down one or the other of their plants . {sent} this company also sells a vital product to the country . {sent} furthermore , it has been pointed out that the likelihood of the sale of this company to its only sizeable competitor will result in a near monopoly for that company . {sent} there will be less control of its operations by our government . {sent} it is much easier for the government to exercise its responsibility over control of a crown corporation than it is to exercise that same control over a near monopoly , if the government sells a crown corporation to its competitor . {sent} i am concerned about the fact that the rights of the employees are inadequately protected and poorly considered by this legislation . {sent} the pension arrangement has not been clarified . {sent} there has been some effort to do so , but it has not been clarified to the satisfaction of the workers in the plant or to that of the union which represents them . {sent} that can be done . {sent} there is precedent , in legislation , for providing the workers with a choice . {sent} once they have made their choice of whether or not they will stay with the old system or enter a new one , then the matter will be resolved . {sent} however , this is not the case now . {sent} the matter has been left in some confusion , which is simply not fair . {sent} the practice of dumping a union or a pension plan by changing ownership is a practice which is growing to be much too common in canada . {sent} this morning we heard that the rate of mergers in canada in the last few years has more than trebled . {sent} in fact , they do have recourse in terms of a wildcat strike . {sent} there are many other matters besides the pension matter which these workers have negotiated over the years . {sent} there have been many examples of what happens during a transitional period from federal labour jurisdiction , as in this case , to provincial labour jurisdiction , from one owner to another . {sent} there will be the question of whether the same union will have successor rights . {sent} there will be the question of the administration of grievances throughout a period which may be many months , or even a year or more , if there are legislative hang-ups . {sent} there will be the question of the whole administration of the labour contract . {sent} i have had experience in a factory where i worked for 18 years as a union officer , as a grievance officer and as secretary of my local . {sent} i know how important it is that grievances be handled promptly . {sent} this is a matter of general labour law . {sent} if it is delayed because it is not known who the official responsible is or under what labour law they are operating , then there can be an immense amount of hardship and bad feeling created . {sent} this is unnecessary . {sent} it could be avoided by the proper interim legislation . {sent} the hoist of a year and a half implies that the proclamation would be at the end of that time . {sent} that need not seriously hinder the transition , and it need not hinder the profitability of these two plants . {sent} it gives time to work out these pension arrangements for the employees . {sent} perhaps it would even give time to ensure that certain safeguards be written into the agreement . {sent} this would ensure that the industry , which is a necessary industry to any country , remains effectively under canadian control . {sent} it would ensure that neither will canada lack its services when they are needed nor will its services be put to a use that is contrary to government policy . {sent} therefore , i hope that hon. members will support this amendment unanimously . {sent} i believe the amendment speaks not necessarily to delay for the sake of delay . {sent} rather , its purpose is to tell the government that it needs to go back to the drawing-board and to be more precise . {sent} if this legislation were delayed , it would be strengthened , and that is what we were elected to do . {sent} if we were elected to ratify holus-bolus whatever the government intended to do in quick and short order , then we would not be fulfilling the major responsibility inherent in the position of a member of parliament , in particular a back-bench member of parliament . {sent} we were elected to ensure that the legislation that flows from this chamber to the senate is legislation that will protect the rights of canadians from coast to coast . {sent} by its very definition , a shareholder of a corporation dictates policy and should also have information at his or her fingertips . {sent} this afternoon , speakers from both opposition parties have spoken to the essential concern of the union and the workers , which is that workers' pension contributions not be undermined . {sent} let us give them that choice because they deserve it . {sent} these individuals will be working for a new company . {sent} they will be doing the same jobs , probably for the same salaries . {sent} is it not only logical then that the contibutions they have made over the years to the pension plan should also be brought with them with some degree of security so that those individuals will know that they and their families will not suffer for the change ? {sent} it is logical and i would think that every member of the house would agree with that principle . {sent} the government cannot , simply because it is the government , change the rules of the game after the game has already begun . {sent} it might be different if the government were to describe the type of package that would be given to new workers . {sent} however , the government simply cannot expect to treat employees , who have been working for this firm for years and years , in a very undignified manner . {sent} that is exactly the manner in which the government is proceeding . {sent} the government has decided , through a government amendment , that it will bring in the kind of pension plan that it thinks is right . {sent} it cannot do that . {sent} the government is privatizing this company so it should do everything all at once . {sent} it should pay attention to each and every aspect of this deal . {sent} what the government is doing is wrong . {sent} there is the suggestion that the government is interested in some aspects of the deal more than in others . {sent} we see that the government is not concerned with the welfare of 800 families . {sent} the government is not concerned with the investment made by 800 employees . {sent} to a certain degree , that is not surprising because we know what the government thought of pensioners some months ago . {sent} the government was prepared , despite the social contract signed by individuals across the country , to undermine and deindex their pensions to a partial degree . {sent} the government was stopped in its effort by the pensioners in conjunction with the opposition parties . {sent} today the government is not moving against the pensions of senior citizens but , rather , the pensions of individuals who are still in the prime of their lives . {sent} the government is now attacking working families , and that is wrong . {sent} that is why members of my party can see some merit in the proposal to delay this legislation . {sent} i am not necessarily concerned with the length of time this legislation may be delayed . {sent} it could be one year , two years or a month . {sent} i am concerned that there be an opportunity for more consideration to be given to this bill . {sent} that leads me to another point . {sent} the 25 million canadian shareholders also wish to know the philosophy of the conservative administration as it concerns crown corporations . {sent} the people are receiving conflicting signals . {sent} why is there this double standard ? {sent} canadian arsenals limited has consistently shown profits from 1980 to 1985 . {sent} in 1984-85 it showed profits of $ 11.3 million . {sent} it has assets of over $ 126.4 million and has a cumulative total of $ 36 million in profits over the last three years . {sent} it also has $ 200 million in backlogged orders . {sent} the conservatives have a philosophy which says that they only sell companies that are losing money , as they preached with regard to de havilland . {sent} they did not look at every other issue at which canadians wanted them to look . {sent} they looked at canadian arsenals limited and said that they wanted to sell it . {sent} it is a profitable organization and a proud canadian entity , yet they saw fit to privatize it . {sent} i see mr. speaker signalling that my time is up . {sent} i ask hon. members to extend my speaking time because i am really getting into the issue and enjoying it . {sent} an hon. member : no. {sent} this act shall come into force after december 31 , l987 , on a date to be fixed by proclamation . {sent} i should like to amend the motion in such a manner as to ensure that when the ndp forms the federal government , we will have an opportunity to review this carefully and to ensure that it will not be considered a fait accompli . {sent} would it be in order to change 1987 to 1989 ? {sent} i would so move , seconded by the hon. member for spadina ( mr. heap ) , if that motion is in order . {sent} would such a motion be in order ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : if the hon. member would like to move that type of motion , i would be glad to receive it in writing . {sent} would he like to do it today or would he like to do it on monday ? {sent} mr. robinson : i am sorry . {sent} what did you say , mr. speaker ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i am talking about your motion . {sent} did you want to present me with a motion at this time ? {sent} mr. robinson : i would be pleased to write out the motion and present it . {sent} mr. gauthier : in both official languages , please . {sent} mr. robinson : i move : {sent} that the motion be amended to change " 1987 " to " 1989 " . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i will accept it . {sent} debate . {sent} mr. robinson : mr. speaker , i am very pleased to rise on this amendment which would change -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member cannot speak now that he has moved the motion . {sent} i am afraid he is not allowed to speak . {sent} mr. robinson : why is that ? {sent} mr. jacques guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : mr. speaker , i intend to deal briefly with the amendment which our colleague from burnaby ( mr. robinson ) has just moved . {sent} the hon. member who suggested to give the government until december 31 , 1987 to think this thing over was certainly looking in the right direction . {sent} however , according to the hon. member for burnaby , it would seem that the hon. member would need two additional years to understand some of the problems -- {sent} mr. gauthier : they are slow on the uptake on the other side -- {sent} mr. guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : -- of this bill . {sent} mr. speaker , one of the main problems that the government is having a hard time to understand is that the canadian state may , as it pleases , sell off a crown corporation . {sent} however , it does not seem fair to me for it to sell off at the same time the employees of the said crown corporation . {sent} yet , in a sense , that is what is happening . {sent} the workers presently employed by canadian arsenals limited have agreed under this bill to concessions that are almost incredible in the labour movement . {sent} that is already a lot , and i suggest it is a major concession . {sent} however , it seems to me that the government is going too far in asking them to surrender also their established rights for a pension plan to protect their future financially . {sent} that is why my colleague has moved an amendment , which may seem ridiculous at first sight , to replace 1987 with 1989 . {sent} i understand that my honourable colleagues are saying : they want to stretch the debate . {sent} let us be honest : surely we want to stretch the debate . {sent} i will say outright that it is not right what the government is doing . {sent} that is why we oppose this and we will stretch the debate as much as we possibly can this afternoon . {sent} let us stop this peek-a-boo game . {sent} that is already a dramatic change . {sent} for the government to ask these people to surrender their pension plan , i think , is going too far . {sent} one of the amendments we discussed earlier was introduced by my colleague for glengarry-prescott-russell ( mr. boudria ) . {sent} that was a reasonable amendment . {sent} however , it was not accepted , mr. speaker . {sent} we believe that certain aspects are unacceptable . {sent} i do not want to preach and pretend that all the hon. members will agree with me , but certain things are unacceptable . {sent} however , we are going to do it by order in council . {sent} the public might not understand what this means , but i do as i have been a member of this house for a long time . {sent} it means : give us a free hand and trust us . {sent} there is no need to do that . {sent} mr. bernier : the people who watch you on television . {sent} mr. guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : yes , i am happy that people can see me on television and i am also anxious for them to hear you , from the beauce region . {sent} i want to see whether you will support the cause of organized workers as much as i do . {sent} i am sorry , mr. speaker , but i should address my comments to you . {sent} the amendment proposed by my colleague gave a choice to the employees . {sent} they would have been able either to continue contributing to their present pension plan with a few changes for transfers , or else to join the pension plan set up by snc . {sent} this seems logical to me . {sent} what i do not want to do is to vote blindly . {sent} do you understand ? {sent} an hon. member : for a change ? {sent} it would make a change for me because , usually , i look -- {sent} an hon. member : what do you mean by voting blindly ? {sent} mr. guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : for heaven 's sake ! {sent} it is strange to hear a government member speak about voting blindly , mr. speaker . {sent} did you hear that , mr. speaker ? {sent} i remember something being said in this house years ago that some of us were voting like trained seals . {sent} now someone on the government side is telling me that for a change we are looking at the content of a motion before voting . {sent} that is a precious admonition coming from members on the government side . {sent} mr. speaker , i would ask my colleagues opposite -- because i said earlier , indeed , that we intended to have the debate go on until 5 o'clock . {sent} that is not really our intention . {sent} as far as i am concerned , i am ready to let it pass immediately . {sent} an hon. member : hear , hear ! {sent} very well , we are beginning to agree . {sent} if we can discuss a little , we are going to agree . {sent} i simply want clarifications on how those employees will have their pension plan protected . {sent} if we could get that , the bill would go through rapidly , the sale would take place . {sent} not only are snc employees concerned , but snc itself is also getting impatient . {sent} the company is ready to reach an agreement with the government , they want to buy the facilities , they want to operate them . {sent} we also have contacts with that company . {sent} they are getting somewhat impatient . {sent} they themselves made an offer to the employees , to the union members who will no longer be . {sent} but that does not work . {sent} the government is not agreeing to that . {sent} the government says : let us proceed with the sale . {sent} after that , we will provide for a sensible pension plan . {sent} i am saying " alright , but let us see it now . {sent} let us look at it beforehand " . {sent} because the employees know what they have now , a pension plan which provides for full indexation , and that is very , very unusual in the private sector . {sent} it would be amazing were they to retain that easily . {sent} those people are aware of that fact . {sent} moreover , this allows for benefits to their dependents , with respect to inheritance rights . {sent} will they be able to get a full pension at age 55 as they may do now ? {sent} there is no assurance of that . {sent} to sum it up , i am asking the government to be a little less of an amateur in that area -- {sent} mrs. mailly : that will be some change . {sent} mr. guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : no , i am quite serious . {sent} i see the hon. member over there who is doing that . {sent} i find this to be amateurish , but let me explain . {sent} in the first place , this is not the first privatization . {sent} there was de havilland before , and it is not the last one indeed , because that is the government 's vowed intention . {sent} that is policy . {sent} let us therefore beware . {sent} will that be a precedent ? {sent} those are the questions we are raising . {sent} i think we are getting to understand each other . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret to interrupt but the hon. member 's time has expired . {sent} the hon. member for kamloops-shuswap ( mr. riis ) . {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : once again it is a pleasure to be recognized by you , mr. speaker , and to have the opportunity to participate in today 's debate . {sent} this motion moved by my colleague , the hon. member for burnaby ( mr. robinson ) is in recognition of the fact that there will be an election probably in 1988 and that the government will be replaced by the new democratic party as the governing party of canada . {sent} it is an appropriate motion . {sent} it provides us an opportunity ask some fundamental questions regarding the motivation behind the selling of a crown corporation . {sent} it is a fair question to ask , particularly with this crown corporation . {sent} in my estimation , in the canadian context , the main reason for business collapses is inefficient or inappropriate management . {sent} the same can be said of many government departments . {sent} there are departments inefficiently run because of an inefficient poorly trained management staff and peculiar practices in some cases . {sent} but in this instance we are talking about a crown corporation , canadian arsenals , that does very well for itself . {sent} the company had profits in its last fiscal year of $ 11.3 million . {sent} it is not the largest company in canada . {sent} as a matter of fact , it hardly ranks among the top 500 in canada . {sent} it is actually in the 470 range , yet the company was ranked third in canada for its five-year profit growth by the financial post . {sent} this is an incredible statement . {sent} it is an extremely profitable company which has shown considerable growth over the last five years . {sent} by all projections , the next five years would look to be equally lucrative . {sent} projections are that profits will increase significantly in the next horizon as presented by firms that have evaluated the company 's performance . {sent} one must ask why we are selling one of the most profitable crown corporations in canada when the government could certainly use the revenue . {sent} the government could put this $ 11.3 million to whatever positive use it determines , but is , instead , throwing it away . {sent} the sales of canadian arsenals are expected to double in the next five years . {sent} i am not certain that that would translate into doubled profits in the next five years , but there would obviously be significant increases in the profit margin . {sent} the government has decided to sell canadian arsenals , which is a 100 per cent crown-owned corporation , to the snc group of montreal . {sent} the snc group of montreal happens to own another munitions company called ivi . {sent} there are only two major munition companies in canada , those being canadian arsenals limited and ivi . {sent} the government is creating a monopoly . {sent} the canadian armed forces will now be required to purchase its munitions from a monopoly . {sent} the requirement for munitions will obviously increase in the future , and we will have to pay the price set by snc and it will reap the profits . {sent} the present shareholders of canadian arsenals are the people of canada and they have been doing very well by the profits of canadian arsenals limited . {sent} we must recognize that we are creating a virtual monopoly in the munitions business . {sent} we are selling a source of revenue for the federal government and are adding to the creeping cancer in our society called corporate concentration . {sent} more and more power is being put into fewer and fewer hands . {sent} the other day i noticed a headline in the new york times warning of the takeover wave in canada . {sent} the americans are observing what is happening north of the border in canada and seeing a business trend , the usefulness of which they question with regard to canada 's future . {sent} as we discuss this bill , the government is contributing to further corporate concentration . {sent} in 1984-85 , canadian arsenals had a return on equity of 21.4 per cent . {sent} let us recognize that the champions of business are wilfully selling off a very lucrative business , the development and manufacturing of munitions for our armed forces . {sent} what it all boils down to , mr. speaker , is that we are dealing with the worst kind of amateurism . {sent} mr. speaker , we may recall that canadian arsenals manufactures medium and large calibre munitions . {sent} so they don't have a wide range of customers , aside from the government or perhaps other governments , that could buy their products . {sent} there are 750 employees at le gardeur near montreal and there is another plant at saint-augustin near quebec city , with 50 employees . {sent} ninety per cent of the company 's production is sold to the government , mr. speaker , and we know that the transaction involves making calls for tenders . {sent} we asked what the criteria were . {sent} we were told : the price only . {sent} mr. speaker , it is later on that people realized all of a sudden that other considerations had to be reviewed seriously . {sent} mr. speaker , if we consider the background of this sale ... and when i say amateurish , i really mean amateurish . {sent} the government did not take the trouble of consulting the union . {sent} it could have learned something ! {sent} it did this thing unilaterally , something it should never have done . {sent} the union representatives question the logic of the government 's sale of a profit-making corporation -- and they said so in committee . {sent} they do not think it is politically wise to treat employees as it is trying to do . {sent} this is not a precedent . {sent} it was done , a company under treasury board jurisdiction was privatized , so to speak , and turned into a crown corporation . {sent} those people were given the option of continuing their contributions to the pension plan and , especially , of asking for a transfer . {sent} in other words , they were sure they could change jobs . {sent} that was fair . {sent} we heard interesting comments from these people . {sent} even the senior department officials might have interesting remarks to make . {sent} i will simply read some of the comments made by mr. o'toole . {sent} as we know , mr. o'toole -- {sent} he is the head of the privatization secretariat of treasury board . {sent} he is also assisted by a mr. basil beneteau who recently retired as vice-chairman of northern telecom after a career in telecommunications . {sent} " it was a horse race to keep up with the transactions in progress and build a strategic framework , " says o'toole . {sent} i am quoting from the report on business magazine of december 14 , 1985 . {sent} it goes on to say : {sent} " i thought i was going to go nuts about august with the fifth round . " {sent} for the potential buyers , every bid revision added to their costs , simply because the government had not done its homework before putting canadian arsenals on the block . {sent} if the tories had either adopted the approach recommended by their own task force or the one developed by the treasury board secretariat , such problems could have been easily avoided . {sent} that is what i mean when i talk about amateurism . {sent} the tories simply had not done their homework . {sent} they had not thought about the employees' benefits . {sent} they did not even give a thought to them . {sent} you would think that an employer , someone who cared for his employees , would at least think of the conditions into which he is going to be putting those employees if he sells the company . {sent} the government did not do that . {sent} it is the same thing over and over with members of this government . {sent} they do not do their homework . {sent} otherwise , the first thing they know they will be in opposition again . {sent} god bless them all , they are good at that and i wish them very well . {sent} that might seem excessive to a few people on the opposite side of the house who wish to comment on the need for better consideration . {sent} therefore , it should be well considered . {sent} we should look at the issues underlying it . {sent} there are broadly two issues . {sent} they cannot be handled in a hurry , without better public consideration than has been given . {sent} the most important issue has barely been addressed by this government or this legislation . {sent} that issue is the question of who created the company . {sent} who created the wealth of the company ? {sent} who made it a viable , profitable operation ? {sent} who made it worth selling or worth buying ? {sent} mr. bradley : nato . {sent} mr. heap : in my mind it was not nato , as one of the clowns opposite has suggested . {sent} it was the working people in those factories who made that company viable . {sent} management could have all kinds of schemes and plans and spend all kinds of money , but efficient production depended on the workforce in the factory . {sent} management did not get out there with a hammer and saw and build it . {sent} the owner did not get out there with his hammer and saw and build it . {sent} it was the workers who produced the plant and it is the workers who produce the products from that plant . {sent} this is a point which is commonly ignored . {sent} it is a point which is becoming more and more of concern to working people in canada . {sent} they produce this wealth which is then traded and traded and traded in these high-level financial deals which make absolutely no sense of the work the workers are doing . {sent} very often it even destroys their work . {sent} certainly it very often destroys their opportunity to go on working . {sent} that is why there should be full consideration given to the people who in fact produced the wealth that made this plant worth talking about and worth buying or selling . {sent} on the other side of the coin , the other consideration deals with the finagling that was done in the process of selling this plant . {sent} some questions have been raised , but i do not think adequate answers have been given . {sent} it may take time to dig out these answers to the questions that have been raised about the process that the department of supply and services used in arranging the sale . {sent} i admit that the department of supply and services is not as used to selling as it is to buying . {sent} previous members have said that the department was probably an amateur at selling . {sent} that is the government 's problem . {sent} what we are not told is why all the others were dropped . {sent} the department of supply and services kept dickering with them and changing the story . {sent} that is not a normal bidding procedure . {sent} i will come back to that point later . {sent} mr. kerr has signed an affidavit saying that he did not deal with any aspect of the cal deal , but it still raises a question . {sent} it is the kind of question which government members would have screamed blue murder about when they were in opposition , screaming about conflict of interest . {sent} i come to one interesting point , which relates to the rather strange bidding procedures that resulted in this one company being selected . {sent} according to la presse , they have paid $ 10,000 to the tory campaign . {sent} we want to know just who influenced the deal and who influenced this rather unusual procedure in the bidding . {sent} what was going on in the back rooms that influenced the way the value of money changed hands ? {sent} the value of the work of the workers in that plant was being tossed around like a football . {sent} as i said , it is the workers who created the value of that plant and the value of the products of that plant by their work . {sent} it is not the money wheelers and dealers who created that value but it is the money wheelers and dealers who want to scoop up the value . {sent} it may not be worth it to the government , but it is well worth it to the people of canada to take some time to look into these questions . {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , i am pleased to elaborate again on some of the points that were made earlier by -- {sent} an hon. member : the same points you made last time . {sent} mr. marchi : -- myself and my colleagues . {sent} there are some members opposite who , in the dying minutes of another parliamentary debate , do not like seeing members of the opposition rising to make their points of view known . {sent} i have been sitting here since two o'clock carrying out my responsibilities and i believe i have earned my pay . {sent} i do not know what members opposite have been doing other than reading the toronto star and seeing that the polls are showing them down once again . {sent} this is the national forum for debate and where political careers are made and broken . {sent} this is where we find out who can articulate concerns on behalf of their constituents . {sent} i am learning that it is simply a case of members of parliament from the liberal party and the new democratic party who have any interest in or any sense of obligation and compassion for the representations we are receiving . {sent} most important , those members opposite are receiving the same representations , but the difference is that they are sitting on their representations while we are bringing them forth in the house of commons , as is the intention of this forum . {sent} my hon. friend and colleague , the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) , quoted from an april edition of business magazine . {sent} some hon. members : more . {sent} mr. marchi : he quoted a number of interesting paragraphs from that magazine , and hon. members opposite are saying " more " . {sent} when one considers that quote in conjunction with the subamendment , it gives credibility and life to that particular subamendment . {sent} i will not stand here and suggest that i agree completely that we should delay this decision even though i disagree with the decision itself . {sent} if that decision has been made , i think we should inevitably come forth with it in the proper way . {sent} that is why i would not support delaying this until 1989 simply for the sake of delay or waiting until the new democratic party is elected to government , as suggested by the member from the ndp . {sent} if that is the purpose , then it will not be 1989 , but probably 3089 . {sent} the government should do its homework on behalf of average canadians , for a change . {sent} i say " a change " because it seems that this conservative administration is concerned with everything else but the lot of the average canadian . {sent} it is fine for those hon. members to stand up and tell us that this is such a proud and profitable organization , but i do not know why they are saying those things at a time when the government is selling the corporation . {sent} if the government is prepared to admit that is so because of the diligence and responsibility of those 800 workers , it should feel at least a little obligated to give them what is rightfully theirs . {sent} when we are discussing the future of this corporation we should discuss the future of those 800 employees . {sent} they have invested their lives . {sent} they have their pension contributions locked up . {sent} that is not good enough . {sent} it is not good business , good management , nor is it fair . {sent} it is not fair to the families of those workers who have a future with that particular company , whether it is under government control or under the control of the private sector . {sent} they will continue to labour for that company and , therefore , it is incumbent upon the government to allow them the opportunities which should be theirs . {sent} the government should allow them to continue to place with the government of canada their pension contributions if they so desire . {sent} the choice should be theirs . {sent} the union disagrees with the government 's policy , the workers disagree , the media disagrees , the two opposition parties disagree , and most fair-minded canadians disagree . {sent} their question and ours is , how can the government proceed on this basis ? {sent} but the government was rightfully shocked to see the mobilization of senior citizens . {sent} the government is thinking in the same narrow way with the same kind of " don't worry , we know what it is all about " attitude with respect to this pension issue facing the 800 employees of canadian arsenals . {sent} that is why we are asking for time . {sent} we are asking the government to go back and look at itself in the mirror and ask itself if it is approaching the issue on behalf of canadians as it ought to . {sent} as the prime minister said so often , this is supposed to be a government for the people , by the people . {sent} we do not see that here and we have not seen it thus far on any other issue . {sent} the other question is on the government 's whole philosophy -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired . {sent} the hon. member for gander-twillingate ( mr. baker ) . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. george baker ( gander-twillingate ) : mr. speaker , one would think that with a reception like that , those hon. members would agree unanimously to let me go on for the rest of the evening . {sent} some hon. members : sure . {sent} mr. baker : please don't . {sent} it is a very confusing position . {sent} on the one hand , the government wants to get rid of crown corporations which are profitable and , on the other hand , we see the creation of crown corporations to save money . {sent} for example , i refer to the creation just this year of the crown corporation cn marine . {sent} it is very difficult to really understand the policy of the government . {sent} only today , i understand , cn sold cn route to a private firm , so i presume this house will be considering very shortly the fate of those employees and their pensions . {sent} the opposition is also concerned about the attitude of the treasury board towards employees . {sent} the government says that this only covers 18,000 or 19,000 employees . {sent} with respect to crewmen on ships , there is a line called the 102nd parallel which goes up through saskatchewan . {sent} if one is sailing a ship to the east of that line , one will make $ 200 a month less than if one were sailing a ship to the west of that line . {sent} hon. members opposite might be interested to check with the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) to find out what happens when a ship actually crosses the line . {sent} is it any wonder that the new democratic and the liberal parties are asking to have another look at this bill ? {sent} we want to examine government policy . {sent} the government obviously does not know what it is doing with crown corporations . {sent} for sure , it does not know what the attitude of treasury board is towards its employees . {sent} there are about 3,000 or 4,000 employees in the negotiating group of ships crews -- but i see my time has expired . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} it being 5 o'clock p.m. , this house stands adjourned until monday at 11 a.m. , pursuant to standing order 3(1) . {sent} the house adjourned at 5 p.m. {sent} petitions {sent} house of commons {sent} monday , april 21 , 1986 {sent} the house met at 11 a.m. {sent} routine proceedings {sent} petitions {sent} government response {sent} price of gasoline {sent} mr. vince dantzer ( okanagan north ) : mr. speaker , i have two petitions . {sent} full indexation of family allowances {sent} mr. vince dantzer ( okanagan north ) : my second petition is also from residents of okanagan north who request that the full indexation of universal family allowance be reinstated . {sent} penitentiary employees -- retirement after 25 years service {sent} request to rescind budgetary tax increases {sent} the petitioners ask that parliament rescind these budgetary tax changes . {sent} continuation of mail service -- ste. rose du lac {sent} mr. brian white ( dauphin-swan river ) : mr. speaker , i have the honour to present to the house two petitions from my constituents . {sent} the first petition is from 97 residents of ste. rose du lac who request that the mail services on rural route no. 1 of ste. rose du lac be continued and that no changes be made to the present service . {sent} request for ban on pornography {sent} mr. brian white ( dauphin-swan river ) : the second petition is from 66 citizens of the swan river valley and roblin , manitoba , who are concerned with the many problems created by pornography . {sent} they ask that the government ban all pornography from canada . {sent} order paper questions {sent} question on the order paper {sent} ( questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk . ) {sent} mr. doug lewis ( parliamentary secretary to president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , the following question will be answered today : no. 538 . {sent} st. clair river pollution investigation report {sent} question no. 538 -- mr. caccia : {sent} 1 . {sent} 2 . {sent} how long will it take to implement each recommendation that the department is acting on , either independently or jointly ? {sent} hon. tom mcmillan ( minister of the environment ) : 1 . {sent} the recommendations listed in the `` st. clair river pollution investigation report '' are divided into three categories : general direction , ambient conditions and pollution sources . {sent} they are being acted upon as follows : {sent} 34 {sent} 2 . {sent} action is ongoing on each of the recommendations . {sent} question passed as order for return {sent} mr. doug lewis ( parliamentary secretary to president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker if question no. 436 could be made an order for return , the return would be tabled immediately . {sent} mr. speaker : the question enumerated by the parliamentary secretary has been answered . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house that question no. 436 be deemed to have been made an order for return ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} contracting out of mailing services {sent} question no. 436 -- mrs. cossitt : {sent} 1 . {sent} 2 . {sent} in the same period , what was the total cost to the taxpayer for all contracts awarded by the government for mailing services ? {sent} return tabled . {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , i ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand . {sent} mr. speaker : shall the remaining questions stand ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} order paper questions {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) moved that bill c-62 , an act respecting employment equity , be read the third time and passed . {sent} she said : mr. speaker , it is with genuine pleasure and , indeed , pride that i stand to move third and final reading of bill c-62 , an act respecting employment equity . {sent} the phrase `` employment equity '' is new . {sent} it has only entered our common vocabulary in the last 18 months with the presentation of the royal commission report by judge rosalie abella . {sent} however , the issue with which that report and this piece of legislation deals is not new . {sent} the barriers to equality in the workplace for too long have hindered women , native people , disabled persons and visible minorities . {sent} i can say quite frankly that in the years before this government came to power i heard a lot of talk about fairness and equality but i saw no action . {sent} what we are seeing here today is a government committed to action in this field . {sent} employment equity is more than just a problem to be solved . {sent} it is an essential part of the fabric of our nation . {sent} like bilingualism , multiculturalism and regional diversity , employment equity is part of our heritage , a heritage in which all canadians must be able to share equal opportunities . {sent} the tabling of this bill in the house today represents the outcome of a useful process whereby facts and information were examined and collected . {sent} employment equity {sent} bill c-62 is the key step in a multi-step operation by the government to ensure a fully representative workplace . {sent} we are not content just to talk . {sent} we are committed to action . {sent} under bill c-62 , employers must identify barriers to target groups and they must remove them . {sent} they must adopt special measures that will involve senior level commitment and management authority . {sent} they must begin immediately hiring and training target group members in all levels of the organization , for example , by moving women into occupations from which they had previously been excluded . {sent} they must show the progress that they are making . {sent} this legislation will cover federally-regulated companies in such fields as banking , communications and transportation . {sent} i refer to companies such as ibm canada , xerox canada and ontario hydro , which have expressed their support and are already implementing employment equity . {sent} many other companies are now working with officials in my department to implement employment equity . {sent} what about the effect of this bill on members of the target groups ? {sent} bill c-62 is a major step forward in creating equal opportunity for women , native people , disabled persons and visible minorities . {sent} in fact , the key word that could be used in conjunction with bill c-62 is `` opportunity '' . {sent} this bill provides an instrument for groups to use in the pursuit of equality . {sent} we are not pretending that by merely passing a bill we have solved the problem . {sent} what we are saying is that we have created a new set of conditions -- a new environment in which equality will become a reality . {sent} bill c-62 presents a challenge to women , to native people , to disabled persons and to visible minorities -- a challenge which was , perhaps , best expressed by judge rosalie abella in her report when she used these words : {sent} equality is a process of constant and flexible examination , of vigilant introspection , and of agressive open-mindedness . {sent} bill c-62 is enabling legislation , a catalyst for change and progress , not a set of rigid limitations and guidelines . {sent} it does not dictate the exact steps that each and every canadian should take . {sent} instead , it sets forth a framework within which interest groups , employers and governments can work together to achieve solid social and economic equality . {sent} it is impossible to be vigilant , as judge abella admonishes us , when employment practices are hidden under layers of legal procedure and bureaucratic building . {sent} in the past , this form of discrimination has been more difficult to deal with , largely because it is hidden . {sent} public disclosure , on which i lay such emphasis , is but one-half of a two-tiered system for enforcing employment equity . {sent} beginning in january of 1987 , about eight months from now , employers will be required to establish explicit goals and timetables for accomplishing employment equity . {sent} at the end of that year they will be required to report on the progress that they have made toward achieving these goals . {sent} these reports will be made public , open to media and public scrutiny -- and this is the second half of the two-tiered system for enforcing employment equity . {sent} the data will also be made available to the canadian human rights commission . {sent} for the first time the canadian human rights commission will have the data that it needs to initiate an investigation under the canadian human rights act . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} miss macdonald : that data has not been available to the commission in the past . {sent} this is a key area in which we are moving . {sent} it is a major change . {sent} he said : {sent} i hope it 's well understood that we intend to use this power . {sent} these reports will provide a profile of where target-group members stand in individual companies . {sent} data from other sources , notably the census , will give us a clear picture of how many target-group members live in a particular area . {sent} as i say , these reports will be made public . {sent} they will be open to the media and to public scrutiny . {sent} the government is committed to ensuring that employment equity becomes a reality . {sent} we intend to knock on the doors of employers who do not meet their responsibilities . {sent} i can tell you , mr. speaker , that we will be knocking with a firm fist . {sent} bill c-62 is based on results , not on procedures or processes . {sent} it is based on results in the way judge abella admonished us to put the emphasis on results . {sent} it is results that count . {sent} for that reason , we rejected the notion of instituting an artificial system of quotas . {sent} we looked at the system in the united states in which quotas are used and concluded that quotas tend to easily become ceilings that employers find very comfortable . {sent} once a ceiling is reached , they feel that they can stop and do not need to go any further . {sent} the value and benefit of our system is its flexibilities . {sent} we are telling employers that that is not all they have to do , that they have to look further . {sent} we are saying that employment equity requires constant vigilance . {sent} employers must think about employment equity in all their staffing actions . {sent} we also rejected quotas for another reason . {sent} bill c-62 is designed to work in a canadian context . {sent} it recognizes the reality of this country which is that it is a country of regional diversity with widely varying resources and needs . {sent} by relying on goals rather than on quotas , we provide a degree of flexibility that suits the canadian economic picture . {sent} to quote gordon fairweather again , when he was speaking in committee on this bill he said the following : {sent} it is one of the strengths of the employment equity act that it lets managers manage . {sent} each corporation can take the steps that make sense in its own unique circumstances . {sent} mr. speaker , employment equity is more than just a matter of social justice : it is a viable concept . {sent} employment equity is a part of our present social and economic reality . {sent} women and members of minority groups are entering the labour market in increasing numbers . {sent} we live in a world of very rapid and complex change , change that is driven by new technologies , by shifting trade arrangements and by increasing interdependence among nations . {sent} with this change comes increased competition and the need to draw on all of our human resources . {sent} in the words of the president of xerox canada , mr. david mccamus : {sent} if we discriminate against women , we are limiting our options , which is something we can't do in today 's competitive environment . {sent} to compete , we have to draw on the best pool of people available . {sent} bill c-62 is designed to convince all employers of the wisdom of mr. mccamus 's words . {sent} it is designed to show them that it is in their own best interests as well as the interests of society to implement employment equity . {sent} in closing , i would just like to reiterate the essence , the purpose and the goal of this bill . {sent} bill c-62 provides target groups with an opportunity they have never had before in this country . {sent} bill c-62 is a springboard for public action , and for aggressive , vigilant , open-minded action by the groups themselves . {sent} it is an opportunity for employers as well to re-examine their business practices , to eliminate systemic discrimination where it exists and to begin drawing on the full range of talent that is available across canada . {sent} it is an opportunity for government to work with target groups and employers to achieve employment equity . {sent} in this endeavour , the government is fully committed . {sent} we will use the vigilance and authority of the canadian human rights commission to ensure employment equity . {sent} we will back the commission with the full weight of government . {sent} as i said at the outset , the time for talk is over . {sent} it is now time to act . {sent} canadians need this bill . {sent} it is already long overdue . {sent} some hon. members : hear hear ! {sent} it is merely a sham that is being perpetrated on the four target groups it is supposed to help . {sent} the co-chairman , beryl potter , in a statement released this morning , said the following : {sent} `` this bill will do nothing more than provide the government with employment information . {sent} it will in no way implement employment equity as there are no penalties for failing to comply with employment equity plans , '' -- {sent} she goes on to say : {sent} `` we have tried everything . {sent} we have consulted with ceic staff , appeared as witnesses before the parliamentary committee on the bill , made pleas to the prime minister directly and rallied on parliament hill . {sent} we have demanded that the bill be amended to include the government 's own departments and agencies and to include a penalty for failing to comply with employment equity plans . {sent} the government has not responded to any of our demands , '' adds potter . {sent} when the prime minister 's letter was finally received on thursday , april 17 , it in no way answered the coalition 's concerns . {sent} that is what one of the target groups that is supposed to be helped by this legislation says about the legislation . {sent} the other target groups , the visible minorities , the women 's groups and the native peoples' groups , are saying the same thing as well . {sent} because there is much confusion , not only out there in the public but also here in the parliament , we must be clear on what is employment equity . {sent} as the minister said , it is a new expression . {sent} employment equity is not the absence of discrimination . {sent} employment equity is a new term developed by judge abella to include affirmative action . {sent} we all understood affirmative action , that terminology . {sent} it goes much further than simply forbidding discrimination . {sent} in fact , affirmative action says that we must discriminate in favour of certain groups to ensure that they are fairly represented in workplaces where they were not represented before . {sent} that is what we are talking about . {sent} i should like to refer to clause 4 of the bill . {sent} the only problem is that if employers do not live up to their obligations under clause 4 , no penalty will be imposed against them . {sent} however , under clause 4 of the bill we are supposed to go beyond that and introduce affirmative action programs . {sent} there is no penalty in the bill or anywhere else if employers do not proceed with those types of programs . {sent} we could support that ; that is very good legislation . {sent} however , if employers do not do what the clause indicates they must do , there is no penalty in the bill . {sent} that is one area about which most of the target groups are concerned . {sent} let me indicate some other reasons for the bill not being adequate . {sent} in addition to the fact that there is no enforcement or penalty clause dealing with the key parts of the bill , it only applies to employers under federal jurisdiction . {sent} of course that is essential because we cannot legislate for employers under provincial jurisdiction . {sent} by the way , employers under federal jurisdiction are only a small percentage of the total of employers in the canadian labour market . {sent} in any case , the bill only applies to employers with 100 or more employees . {sent} in the canada labour code employers are defined as those with five or more employees . {sent} in the affirmative action legislation in the united states employers are defined as those with 15 or more employees . {sent} we felt that 100 was too high . {sent} we listened to the evidence and introduced an amendment which indicated that in canada it should be applicable to employers with a workforce of 25 or more employees . {sent} some of the witnesses had recommended 25 or more , and we thought that was reasonable . {sent} the bill is not adequate on that ground . {sent} it eliminates many employers from the purview of the bill by making the floor too high , by setting it at 100 rather than 15 or 25 . {sent} also , the bill is wanting to the extent that it does not cover federal government departments and agencies . {sent} the parliamentary secretary said during the debate that it was not necessary for the legislation to cover federal departments because they were already covered by guidelines introduced under the treasury board . {sent} those regulations were introduced by the previous liberal government . {sent} however , we never said at that time that it would be the last word . {sent} as a matter of fact , they were introduced at a time when we were still dealing with the implementation of the charter of rights and freedoms and we had not yet received the advice of judge abella in respect to these matters . {sent} the former liberal government appointed the abella commission to seek out information and advice on how best to introduce affirmative action programs . {sent} nevertheless , we introduced for the federal public service affirmative action programs which are still in effect . {sent} they will announce it later , but they do not have to go to parliament to seek changes , to withdraw those rules , or to strengthen those rules . {sent} those rules can be changed simply by order in council in the back room of the cabinet process . {sent} that is not good enough . {sent} why should a heavier burden or a more entrenched version of employment equity be placed upon the private sector but not upon the public sector ? {sent} in many respects we are making the process much tougher in the fact that the legislation will be entrenched . {sent} we are making it more firmly entrenched and more difficult to change for the private sector than for the public sector . {sent} as judge abella pointed out in her report , the legislation should apply to federal government departments and agencies as well as to private sector firms . {sent} it is also important if we are to give a good example to the provinces . {sent} as i mentioned a few minutes ago , the federal government has only limited jurisdiction in respect to labour matters in canada . {sent} most firms and their employment equity programs will come under provincial jurisdiction . {sent} over the years , going back to the thirties , the federal government has set the trend in advanced labour legislation to protect employees . {sent} sooner or later the provinces came onside and did more or less the same thing . {sent} i have mentioned certain items where this bill falls short . {sent} there are no adequate penalties for federal employees , or for employees in private sector companies with less than 100 employees . {sent} second , the definition in clause 4 , to which i referred for affirmative action , is also inadequate . {sent} not only is it inadequate , it will not do the job . {sent} the problem is that many of these groups are not in the workforce . {sent} the number of disabled people in the workforce is very small because they cannot get jobs . {sent} the number of visible minorities is small because they cannot get jobs . {sent} if you look at the representation in the workforce and use it as a standard , as this bill does , it will be very poor . {sent} the bill will amount to nothing . {sent} certain members read out the rate of unemployment for blacks in canada . {sent} it is extremely high . {sent} in some parts of montreal 60 per cent to 70 per cent of young blacks are unemployed . {sent} we have the same situation in many parts of the country . {sent} in regina , winnipeg and places where there are many native people , both on the reserves and near the reserves , there are very high rates of unemployment . {sent} the definition of being in the workplace is that you must have been for an interview for a job within the last four weeks of being interviewed . {sent} many people have given up hope . {sent} they have tried and tried again and again without success . {sent} that definition is wanting . {sent} that was a step forward . {sent} i congratulate the minister . {sent} it is a good move . {sent} we also tried to get an amendment which would oblige the employer to consult with the representatives of the target groups . {sent} very often the target groups are not very well represented in the employees' associations or unions . {sent} it is unfortunate . {sent} i met a young woman working in kingston in the correctional service . {sent} the unions do not represent their point of view . {sent} we introduced an amendment in the house and in committee to do that but it was turned down . {sent} it seems strange to me because the same logic applied there as with the other amendment . {sent} in one case the government accepted it and in the other case it turned it down . {sent} in any case , there is still an inadequacy in the bill in that respect . {sent} again i give credit to the government , to the minister and to the parliamentary secretary for agreeing that there had to be action plans . {sent} when the bill was first presented to the house there was no requirement on the employer to prepare action plans setting out goals and timetables . {sent} many witnesses argued that that must be done . {sent} an employer shall , in respect of each year , prepare a plan setting out {sent} ( a ) the goals that the employer intends to achieve in implementing employment equity in the year or years to which the plan relates ; and {sent} ( b ) the timetable for the implementation of those goals . {sent} very good , mr. speaker . {sent} but when we get to subsection ( 2 ) of clause 5 it reads : {sent} a copy of a plan -- {sent} meaning the action plan . {sent} -- prepared under subsection ( 1 ) shall be retained by the employer at the employer 's principal place of business in canada for a period of at least three years -- {sent} that , however , is too late , mr. speaker . {sent} the purpose of the action plan is to make public what employers intend to do about employment equity , about affirmative action . {sent} the action plan , which is a good thing , should be made available to the target groups , to the employers and to the canadian human rights commission . {sent} while subsection ( 1 ) of clause 5 is very good , subsection ( 2 ) is extremely wanting and is not good . {sent} these are the principal grounds on which we are opposing this bill and why we are saying the bill is not adequate , but there are other specific reasons . {sent} we tried to put in the bill the principle of equal pay for work of equal value as one of the standards for employment equity . {sent} that amendment was turned down . {sent} we tried to introduce a definition for reasonable accommodation , a definition that was very strongly supported and wanted by the associations of disabled people , women and others , but that also was turned down . {sent} that is correct . {sent} the canadian human rights act was passed by this house in 1977 . {sent} it was introduced by a liberal government . {sent} the prohibited grounds of discrimination are national or ethnic origin , colour , religion , age , sex , marital status , family status , disability and conviction for which a pardon has been granted . {sent} since 1977 we have had a law which outlaws discrimination in employment in accordance with the section to which i have just referred on a wide , wide basis . {sent} we all know of the bakke case in the united states . {sent} under the american affirmative action programs and legislation , the supreme court ruled those out of order because they were a sort of reverse discrimination . {sent} the supreme court says that if the law says you cannot discriminate , you cannot even discriminate when you want to help people . {sent} the charter of rights and freedoms in section 15(1) states : {sent} we then said in subsection ( 2 ) : {sent} it was necessary to entrench in the constitution the capacity of the federal and provincial governments to pass laws on affirmative action so they would not be ruled out of order on the basis that they were discriminating . {sent} in fact , in 1977 the canadian human rights act was passed . {sent} in 1981 the charter of rights was passed with section 15 , against much opposition from certain conservative members . {sent} the hon. minister supported it , but certain members of her party did not . {sent} a process has been ongoing for several years which should have led , by this time , to enforceable affirmative action as was recommended by judge abella , but that unfortunately is not being done . {sent} the abella commission was set up in june , 1983 , as soon as possible after the passage of the charter . {sent} the commission reported to a conservative government in october , 1984 , after being set up by a liberal government . {sent} after a study of more than one year judge abella said very clearly that mandatory employment equity was necessary and essential . {sent} she said that voluntary affirmative action did not work in the united states , is not working elsewhere , and will not work here . {sent} she said that we need an enforcement agency with penalties and sanctions . {sent} this bill does not provide those . {sent} it would be the simplest thing in the world for the minister to put forward an enforceable bill . {sent} clause 7 now says : {sent} an employer who fails to comply with section 6 is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty thousand dollars . {sent} clause 6 simply requires employers to produce information with respect to their workplace . {sent} we tried to increase the $ 50,000 to $ 500,000 because to many of the large companies under federal jurisdiction $ 50,000 is like a price to steal . {sent} it would be cheaper for large companies like bell telephone or the royal bank of canada to pay the $ 50,000 every year than to implement employment equity . {sent} in committee we supported an amendment put forward by the hon. member for yorkton -- melville ( mr. nystrom ) which would subject employers to a fine if they did not comply with sections 4 , 5 , and 6 . {sent} that would have made this a very good bill . {sent} i also moved an amendment to increase the fine to a maximum of $ 500,000 , but that was rejected by the government as well . {sent} i have referred briefly to what other groups have said about this bill . {sent} i referred to the press release issued today by the disabled people . {sent} i also have a press release with respect to this legislation which was issued by the canadian ethnocultural council . {sent} it says in part : {sent} in addition , the absence of any employment mechanism or agency means that voluntary organizations with minimal budgets will have to do the real monitoring . '' {sent} that has been taken care of to a certain extent , and i will talk about that in a moment . {sent} the press release goes on to say that this bill is not acceptable . {sent} they said that slightly more than half of management participants in the study had negative things to say about racial minorities . {sent} only 9 per cent of the 199 large employers , all with more than 50 employees , stated a firm belief in racial equality . {sent} for example , 28 per cent of the employers said they believed that non-whites in general do not have the ability to meet job performance criteria compared with whites . {sent} that is part of the problem . {sent} listen to them , rather than us . {sent} we are simply voicing their views because there are not enough of them in this house . {sent} if the government will listen to them , it may produce a worth-while piece of legislation . {sent} this bill simply requires that information on employment equity be reported to the minister and the canadian human rights commission . {sent} for example , an employer with 100 employees might report in year one that he has 100 employees including one woman , five from the visible minorities , and no natives . {sent} the company does not want to be fined $ 50,000 under clause 7 , so it makes that report . {sent} the next year it reports again that it has 100 employees , including one woman , five from the visible minorities , and no disabled people or natives . {sent} it makes the same report year after year and is never penalized because it is reporting as required . {sent} however , it is , unfortunately , making no progress on employment equity . {sent} it is not introducing affirmative action plans , nor are there any penalties . {sent} this bill was supposed to deal with that very issue but does not because the enforcement provisions are not there . {sent} the legal officers for the canadian human rights commission argued before the committee that he and she thought they could enforce this bill through certain sections in the canadian human rights act . {sent} they referred me to various sections . {sent} i am a lawyer and i attempted to follow their argument but was not convinced that they had any way of enforcing the employment equity bill through their legislation . {sent} it seems that the federal court of canada agrees with that suggestion . {sent} the minister of employment and immigration ( miss macdonald ) has rejected the amendments that both opposition parties put forward . {sent} she can use all the rhetoric in the world and make the best speeches to say how good this legislation is , but she is not convincing the employees in the target groups . {sent} this legislation could have been a great achievement for the government . {sent} unfortunately , it is not . {sent} as the disabled people pointed out when they were here last week , this is a black day for canada and employment equity . {sent} this whole discussion began about a year ago last march or february with the report of judge rosalie abella . {sent} legislation was tabled before the house , followed by second reading debate and lengthy legislative committee hearings at which many witnesses appeared . {sent} we have had report stage debate and we are now at third and final reading . {sent} there is still a major difference between the government on one side and the opposition and four target groups on the other about the purpose of this bill . {sent} all four of those groups appeared before our legislative committee to suggest many amendments because they believe this bill is not strong enough and will not reflect what is needed to solve their problems . {sent} however , this bill does not do that . {sent} the enforcement of that equity is not being provided with this legislation . {sent} i believe it is worth while to remind the house of the election promise made by the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) in august , 1984 , when many people thought there would be much tougher legislation . {sent} he said at that time : {sent} our party will ensure that companies providing services to the federal government hire increasing numbers of women to perform such services . {sent} numerical goals are one of several goals required : training and retaining are others . {sent} that is what the prime minister said during the election campaign in 1984 . {sent} i believe you were in the house last monday , mr. speaker , when over 100 disabled canadians gathered on the hill to protest that the prime minister has not kept his word . {sent} beryl potter is one of the leaders of the disabled groups in canada . {sent} she stated on the cbc national news last monday night : {sent} like the bill -- it 's not even worth the paper it 's written on ... i 've never been so disillusioned in my life as i am with prime minister mulroney . {sent} i was a supporter of him . {sent} i worked for him in his campaign and i am totally , totally disillusioned . {sent} beryl potter of the coalition on employment equity for persons with disabilities is a leader of the disabled in our country . {sent} she campaigned actively for the prime minister and the conservative party of canada because she believed in the prime minister and that party . {sent} she believed that that party would do something useful for her as a disabled person and the people she represented . {sent} yet , she said : `` i am totally , totally disillusioned '' . {sent} when will they begin to listen to the people of this country ? {sent} one of the great tragedies of a government with an overwhelming majority is that it becomes insensitive to public opinion . {sent} i recall talking to a veteran conservative member of parliament about a week after the federal election in september , 1984 . {sent} we won 50 seats too many . '' {sent} when we look at parliamentary tradition in this country and around the world where there have been large majorities , we see that those majority governments became insensitive to the will of the people and were often defeated after one term in office . {sent} we saw the problems with the diefenbaker government from 1958 to 1964 and what happened to the trudeau government from 1968 to 1972 . {sent} time and time again , governments with large majorities -- {sent} an hon. member : like the present government . {sent} mr. nystrom : -- have become insensitive . {sent} like the present government , as one of the conservative members is saying . {sent} one only need ask beryl potter to see that the same problem is happening again . {sent} the prime minister said that he would give a reply as to what could be done . {sent} they went to the prime minister 's office and had a meeting with mr. norquay in the pmo . {sent} they were happy about that . {sent} you know what happened ? {sent} what happened was that the prime minister broke a commitment that he would , once again , get back to the disabled canadians before report stage . {sent} i ask now why a simple courtesy like that was not extended to beryl potter and disabled canadians ? {sent} that is why they were so angry in the gallery of the house of commons last monday . {sent} you know what they did in the prime minister 's office ? {sent} they sent a reply the day disabled canadians came before parliament to demonstrate , the day disabled canadians in the gallery spoke out against this bill , and the very day they were here in ottawa . {sent} they did not do it seven or eight days sooner , as they promised , before this bill came back for report stage . {sent} when the government treats canadians in that way it does not deserve to be around very long . {sent} that is the purpose of the bill . {sent} there is nothing in the bill that is going to make it mandatory . {sent} the minister of employment quoted judge rosalie abella a couple of times earlier this morning . {sent} she did not quote some of the important passages that judge rosalie abella referred to when it came to mandatory affirmative action . {sent} i quote from page 195 of her report where she talks about mandatory measures versus voluntary measures that the government has introduced in this bill . {sent} this is what rosalie abella is saying : {sent} a voluntary program with a mandatory reporting requirement is nonetheless voluntary in the absence of a requirement to remedy the discriminatory practices disclosed by the information reported . {sent} in other words , we need mandatory action . {sent} second , she says , and i quote : {sent} it results in a speculative and scattered approach and creates the perception , in the absence of enforcement , that the issue is deserving of only casual attention . {sent} in other words , she is saying we need mandatory affirmative action . {sent} one last quote from her report on page 197 : {sent} we have a minister and a government saying that the court of public opinion will prevail . {sent} public opinion will force the bank of montreal , the royal bank , bell telephone and all others to make sure there is employment equity in this country . {sent} i do not believe that , and the four target groups do not believe that , and that is why they want changes . {sent} i referred to beryl potter on disabled canadians , and my friend from notre-dame-de-grace referred to a statement made this morning once again saying that this bill is not going to help them very much at all in this country . {sent} i also want to refer to other groups . {sent} we have here a statement from the inuit people of canada saying that bill c-62 is of limited value . {sent} we have a quotation here from the national association of women in law , suzanne boivin , who says : {sent} nothing will change , unfortunately it is simply wishful thinking . {sent} we have example after example of target groups before the committee that have said exactly the same thing , that this bill is not good enough and it does not go far enough . {sent} what we called for in the committee were five different principles to be enshrined in this particular piece of legislation . {sent} one is , in the absence of real enforcement , adequate penalties under mandatory equity schemes where necessary . {sent} second , we want to have some reference in the bill to the whole principle of equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} finally , we want federal departments included in this legislation . {sent} those points of view were also supported by the vast majority of witnesses that came before our committee , and in particular all the witnesses who came from the four different target groups covered by this legislation . {sent} in summary , this legislation is voluntary equity with a mandatory reporting process . {sent} i ask you what is a $ 50,000 fine for bell canada ? {sent} what is a $ 50,000 fine for the royal bank ? {sent} what is a $ 50,000 fine for the bank of montreal ? {sent} it is peanuts . {sent} now there may not be many big companies like that , as a member for ontario said . {sent} but it is important , as the four target groups said to have adequate penalties so we do have some kind of punishment if the law is broken . {sent} what we suggest in our party is that you make the penalty clause apply also to employment equity so it is enforced . {sent} but , of course , that is not part of the bill . {sent} the other aspect of this bill is that when there are reports the reports are not made public . {sent} but if there is a report , that is the only part of the bill where there can be a penalty or a sanction . {sent} the only penalty , as i said before , is through the human rights act . {sent} the human rights commission does not enforce employment equity . {sent} the human rights act cannot enforce the employment equity bill ; it is not part of the mandate . {sent} they cannot force the bank of montreal or the royal bank to hire more women in the middle management or senior management positions . {sent} what we are hearing from women across the country is that this bill should have within it a clause which will make sure it is enforced . {sent} another part of the bill you would find interesting is the provision for what is called an action plan . {sent} when this bill was first presented to the house there was no provision for an action plan at all . {sent} we had group after group coming before us saying that there has to be an action plan . {sent} the minister , to her credit , introduced an amendment which will provide for an action plan . {sent} ultimately , as the government responded , they introduced an amendment for an action plan which included , of course , goals and timetables . {sent} ultimately , they made sure that this action plan remain confidential . {sent} we have an action plan now which is confidential . {sent} the employees of the bank of montreal , or the employees of bell canada cannot have access to the action plan . {sent} the human rights commission does not automatically have access to the action plan . {sent} here is gordon fairweather saying , `` you do not have to give us that action plan , but i think it would be in your interests if you do so . '' {sent} if we are going to have any kind of industrial or economic democracy , surely the employees should also have access to action plans . {sent} i am not sure what the conservative party is afraid of . {sent} the conservatives campaigned with very prestigious people like jed baldwin for freedom of information for many years . {sent} i have a great deal of admiration for jed baldwin . {sent} i remember his private members' bills in this house . {sent} i also remember the former prime minister ; i forget his riding but his first name is `` joe '' . {sent} i remember that he also took considerable action during his short nine months as prime minister in 1979 with respect to better freedom of information law . {sent} but we now have a prime minister who seems to ignore the root beliefs of his party . {sent} i wonder once again why the minister did not make the appropriate amendment on behalf of the people of canada . {sent} another part of the bill about which we heard a lot of criticism is its failure to include equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} we put a number of amendments in committee which would have made that a part of the bill . {sent} they would have made equal pay for work of equal value a reality in terms of this legislation . {sent} i believe that is very important . {sent} we moved that amendment without success in committee . {sent} this was something which was called for by the women of this country , but which is not in the bill . {sent} something else which is missing in the bill is contract compliance . {sent} we might ask , is that not a radical thing to do ? {sent} is that not too radical for canadian conservatives ? {sent} it is not . {sent} if it can be done in the u.s. why can it not be done in canada ? {sent} i believe it is reflective of the fact that we have a majority government which is too large and insensitive to the opinions of the people of canada . {sent} in 1980 the canadian government had contracts with some 25,000 to 30,000 firms with $ 6.5 billion worth of contracts going to the private sector and some $ 5.5 billion going to crown corporations . {sent} supply and services alone in 1982-1983 signed 333,928 contracts worth $ 5 billion on behalf of the federal government . {sent} so i believe we must have contract compliance . {sent} i believe this is exactly what the people of canada want . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i am sorry . {sent} i regret that the hon. member 's time has expired . {sent} however , he does have a period for questions and comments . {sent} i am sure , being such a very popular hon. member , he will have a question or comment . {sent} mr. keeper : mr. speaker , i listened with a great deal of interest to my colleague 's speech . {sent} i wonder if he could elaborate a little further on the last point he made with regard to the inadequacies of the legislation before the house . {sent} i wanted to hear more fully what he had to say on that point . {sent} mr. nystrom : a very wise question from a very thoughtful hon. member . {sent} it reminds me of some of the questions members of the conservative party ask during question period from time to time . {sent} in any event , i want to make one last point . {sent} i ask why not ? {sent} we should practice what we preach . {sent} i make one argument as to why it is important . {sent} beryl potter on behalf of disabled canadians came here last week and told us that some 75 per cent of disabled canadians who work for our federal government work on contract . {sent} they are term employees . {sent} it is the 75 per cent of disabled canadians who work for the federal government on contract who are laid off . {sent} so i think it is very important to include federal goverment departments in this legislation . {sent} the minister can say that the government has its own affirmative action program , but that is accepting the old liberal argument which this government often does . {sent} the policies of the federal public service are totally management controlled . {sent} i think the conservative party should be interested in making sure there is some participation by the public service itself . {sent} second , many basics of an equity program are not subject to a bargaining process under the public service staff relations act . {sent} i think they should be . {sent} fourth , there have been no initiatives taken to identify and eliminate systemic discrimination in all aspects of public service employment practices . {sent} fifth , and most important , in my opinion , these policies which are called `` treasury board guidelines '' lack the force and commitment of law . {sent} treasury boards and their ministers come and go and the guidelines can change from one government to the next . {sent} our party is urging that this be made law now . {sent} we should have the force of law behind employment equity . {sent} in conclusion , i want to say that this bill is not good enough . {sent} all this bill will do is call for employment equity in a voluntary sense . {sent} that is not good enough . {sent} mr. speaker , in a democratic society it is very important to have a democratic process . {sent} and in this case , the women of canada , who are in the majority in this country , are opposed to this bill . {sent} the other groups are opposed as well : native people , visible minorities and the disabled , all are against this bill . {sent} ms. sheila copps ( hamilton east ) : mr. speaker , the minister has described bill c-62 as a springboard -- a springboard for miniorities across the country . {sent} such action was promised by the prime minister in his speech during the women 's debate and throughout the course of his campaign . {sent} unfortunately , instead of seeing the minister pull forward the conservative caucus , dragging them kicking and screaming into the 20th century , we see that the minister has been pulled back . {sent} she has replaced action with rhetoric . {sent} she has replaced promises made by the prime minister , as well as by the conservative party , with mere words . {sent} i refer to the minorities who feel that this legislation does not respond to the employment hopes and aspirations which they have developed over the last number of years . {sent} it does not reply to the concerns of the visible minorities or to native groups . {sent} to whom does this legislation reply ? {sent} it replies to the real bosses of the conservative party -- the large corporations which have now been called upon by the federal government to report . {sent} once they make their reports they can devise their action plans . {sent} however , they can keep these action plans private and secret in the confines of their own corporate boardrooms . {sent} they can deny , even to the target groups cited by the minister , an opportunity to examine these plans to determine whether , in fact , they are delivering on their promises of employment equity . {sent} the minister ( ms. macdonald ) and the prime minister ( mr.mulroney ) said they preferred to use the voluntary approach when dealing with equality matters and employment equity . {sent} however , mr. speaker , we all know that the voluntary approach does not work with companies , especially the big companies which see making a profit as their primary responsibility . {sent} the equality for all report put forward some fairly significant recommendations . {sent} it was an all-party unanimous report which specifically cited bill c-62 , the legislation which we are discussing today , as being discriminatory . {sent} the report stated that the bill goes against the spirit of the charter . {sent} it was cited as being discriminatory because of the fact it exempts the federal government . {sent} here we have the federal government reaching out to companies which employ 100 or more people and saying : `` we are asking you to launch an action plan on a voluntary basis and to table it . {sent} we are also asking you to launch affirmative action programs within your companies . {sent} however , we are not prepared , in a substantive way , through law as opposed to legislation , to submit ourselves to the same type of public scrutiny '' . {sent} the minister will say that the treasury board is handling this matter through regulation . {sent} however , as has already been pointed out , any regulation can be abolished as quickly as it can be written . {sent} the second point -- {sent} mr. speaker , the major drawback of this bill is that it applies only to companies with at least 100 employees . {sent} we know that most companies will not be affected by this legislation because the majority of canadian companies are small businesses with fewer than 100 employees . {sent} what happens to those companies with only 25 , 30 or 40 employees ? {sent} as the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) has suggested , we might at least follow the example of the united states where all companies with more than 15 employees are included . {sent} all such companies in the united states are governed by federal employment equity regulations . {sent} very reasonable and dedicated as he is , the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east recommended that the bill might be made applicable only to companies with more than 25 employees . {sent} he did not suggest that all small businesses would be affected . {sent} the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east put forth a number of extremely reasonable amendments -- in fact , almost three dozen amendments -- which dealt with the sum and substance of the bill . {sent} they attempted to redress some of the inequitities which had already been outlined by the all-party committee studying equality rights . {sent} in fact , only two or three amendments , which were certainly not the meat of the matter , were accepted by the government . {sent} unfortunately , as with so many of the other promises of the government , and as with so many other promises of the prime minister , he says one thing to the women of canada and another to the companies of canada . {sent} when it comes time to see which interest group wins out in the struggle for rights and equality it is quite clear that the companies , the multi-nationals -- the imasco 's of this world -- have won out . {sent} the little people , the women of canada , do not have a chance . {sent} a report released today states that poverty is increasing in canada . {sent} the major groups hurt by poverty include groups of women and children . {sent} if we are to address in real terms the question of poverty and the feminization of poverty , the only real way to do it is to implement specific recommendations to deal with the wage gap . {sent} for every dollar earned by a man , a woman earns 58 cents , 60 cents or 62 cents depending upon the province . {sent} employment equity legislation with real teeth would not solve that problem today but would send out a message , not only to companies -- {sent} mr. turner ( ottawa -- carleton ) : louder . {sent} ms. copps : the hon. member for ottawa -- carleton ( mr. turner ) has told me to speak louder . {sent} the statistics which came out today show that women and children are sinking deeper an deeper into poverty . {sent} the government cannot even come to grips with the simple questions of early childhood education and daycare . {sent} a report came across the table to the government calling for massive structural changes in the way we deal with early childhood education . {sent} the response of the government was to set up another study group and to name as the chairman of that study group the hon. member for lincoln ( mrs. martin ) . {sent} when the hon. member for lincoln was first elected , her office was quoted as saying that she was not interested in women 's issues because women only made up 1.5 per cent of her riding in any event . {sent} this is the person the government has appointed to chair a new task force on early childhood education . {sent} the government does not believe in daycare . {sent} employment equity is just one tool to be used in trying to achieve equality . {sent} that is simply not so . {sent} there are many other factors involved , including the education and socialization process and the question of the availability of daycare and support systems for men and women . {sent} unfortunately , the situation is that the government showered promises upon the women of canada during the election campaign . {sent} now when the time comes to deliver on those promises , the government is unprepared to do anything as simple as having this legislation cover the government 's own departments . {sent} if you were in business , mr. speaker , would you be able to market that concept ? {sent} would you be able to tell your customers that you want certain laws to apply to your customers but you want to make sure that you are not covered by them ? {sent} what does the federal government have to hide ? {sent} what do conservative members have to hide ? {sent} therefore , conservative members are not prepared to subject themselves to the same scrutiny that they are prepared to impose upon companies with over 100 employees . {sent} however , there are four elements to this bill at which we need to take a closer look . {sent} first , the bill does not apply to federal government employees . {sent} second , it applies to companies on the federal scene with only 100 or more employees . {sent} do we really believe that a secret action plan which is not subject to public scrutiny will mean a change in the employment situation for visible minorities , natives , the handicapped and women ? {sent} i do not think so . {sent} as was pointed out by the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east , the actual wording of the legislation is faulty . {sent} in a sense , current discriminatory practices with respect to employment will be institutionalized . {sent} i am referring to clause 4(b) which calls upon companies to institute such positive practices that are at least proportionate to representation in the workforce . {sent} all disabled persons in the country who currently receive benefits are not included in this program because they are not a part of the workforce . {sent} at the very least , the government should include a clause which sets targets based on the number of people in the population at large and not specifically restricted to the number of people attached to the labour force . {sent} i would like to give private members on all sides of the house an opportunity to vote on this issue . {sent} therefore , i move , seconded by the hon. member for bourassa ( mr. rossi ) : {sent} that the motion be amended by deleting all of the words after the word `` that '' and substituting the following : {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i see no problem with the proposed motion moved by the hon. member for hamilton east ( ms. copps ) and seconded by the hon. member for bourassa ( mr. rossi ) . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i was about to put questions to the hon. member as part of the 10-minute question period . {sent} is that in order now ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i will allow questions and comments . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , the amendment which the hon. member put before the house would send the bill back to committee for reconsideration of clauses nos. 3 , 5 and 7 . {sent} clause no. 3 is the interpretation clause which deals with , for example , whether or not federal government departments should be included in the bill . {sent} clause 5 deals with action plans . {sent} clause 7 deals with the sanction . {sent} in my remarks i argued that clause 7 could be strengthened if the $ 50,000 fine for not moving ahead was applied to clauses nos. 4 , 5 and 6 . {sent} would she elucidate , since she made her amendment near the end of her remarks , on whether that is what she hopes to do in committee ? {sent} ms. copps : mr. speaker , i should like to take those questions in reverse order . {sent} quite clearly clause 7 refers to a fine only if the employer does not comply with clause 6 , that is , the obligation to report to the federal government . {sent} it is the only obligation which is subject to a fine . {sent} therefore , in a sense an employer could report as follows : `` i have not done anything and 1986 has passed . {sent} i have reported and therefore i am not subject to a fine '' . {sent} we feel that that is wrong . {sent} at the moment there is no enforcement except wherein it deals with the obligation to report . {sent} an action plan which is to be kept secret is in fact no action plan at all . {sent} obviously we want it to be open and accessible so that it can be examined by committees of the house of commons and examined by the involved target groups to see whether it is being carried out . {sent} obviously we feel that is wrong . {sent} mr. mccurdy : mr. speaker , first of all i have a question of clarification . {sent} do i understand correctly that the amendment would apply to clauses nos. 3 , 5 and 7 only ? {sent} ms. copps : mr. speaker , one could make it broader , but the amendment before the house at the moment would call for a re-examination of clauses nos. 4 , 5 and 7 by the committee . {sent} clause 4 restricts application to companies with 100 or more employees and exempts the federal government . {sent} if the committee decided in its wisdom that it wanted to examine other issues , that would possibly be within the mandate of the committee . {sent} however , we specified those three areas because they were cited as the most heinous areas in the bill . {sent} mr. mccurdy : i have a supplementary question . {sent} mr. baker : yes , mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} since the motion before the house now will direct debate , would your honour rule on whether or not the motion applies to the entire bill ? {sent} i know certain people wish to restrict it to clauses nos. 3 , 5 and 7 , but i would argue that we are now examining the entire bill -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i appreciate the hon. member 's point of order . {sent} it is a very strict motion which deals with particular clauses only . {sent} i believe that clears up the matter . {sent} mr. mccurdy : mr. speaker , my understanding of the motion is that indeed it applies to clauses nos. 3 , 5 and 7 . {sent} if the secrecy of clause 5 is objectionable , clearly the fact that the action plan set out in clause 4 is available to no one is just as important , if not more important than the secrecy attached to the report on clause 5 . {sent} ms. copps : mr. speaker , at some point in the future i would be most happy to introduce another amendment dealing specifically with clause 4 . {sent} we discussed which clauses should be included with our procedural expert . {sent} we were advised that if we included a straight , blanket hoist motion , it might be ruled not in order . {sent} it is our intention to proceed at this moment with those particular clauses because they were cited by most of the involved groups as the areas within the bill which were most despised . {sent} we would certainly be prepared to proceed with clauses nos. 4 and / or 2 and / or other clauses at another time . {sent} obviously we want to give the government every opportunity to change the thrust of the bill . {sent} mr. hawkes : mr. speaker , i sat on the legislative committee . {sent} we sat for many hours and i believe we heard all the witnesses who wanted to testify before us . {sent} when it reported to the house , the committee said that it had looked at those ideas . {sent} the testimony which is now before the house would indicate that the committee gave very thorough consideration to every one of those ideas and found them wanting . {sent} the committee was chaired by a member of the hon. member 's party . {sent} is she saying that the chairmanship was not in order or was not good chairmanship ? {sent} is she saying that the composition of the committee was not good ? {sent} is she saying that the witnesses were inappropriate ? {sent} what complaint does she have in terms of how the committee functioned ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i will allow the hon. member for hamilton east ( ms. copps ) to reply , if she will do so quickly . {sent} ms. copps : mr. speaker , obviously i have some concerns about the composition of the committee . {sent} it was made up of a majority of tories who chose to ignore the representations of every single target group cited : women , visible minorities , native canadians as well as the handicapped . {sent} they have all been ignored in this bill . {sent} they are the ones who came forth with these recommendations . {sent} had the membership of the committee been made up of a majority of liberals and new democrats , no doubt the amendments would have passed . {sent} yes , i would like to throw most of the tories off the committee . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} it being one o'clock , i do now leave the chair until 2 p.m. {sent} at 1.01 p.m. the house took recess . {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} after recess {sent} the house resumed at 2 p.m. {sent} statements pursuant to s.o. 21 {sent} energy {sent} criticism of government policy {sent} mr. maurice foster ( algoma ) : mr. speaker , the government 's energy policy is on the rocks . {sent} we have the worst of all worlds -- low crude oil prices for producers , and high retail prices for consumers . {sent} last year the government promised hundreds of thousands of jobs and that energy would be the engine of growth for the canadian economy . {sent} today we see low oil prices for exploration and development in western canada . {sent} cut-backs of $ 3 billion to $ 4 billion are expected this year in exploration and development , a loss of 100,000 jobs to the canadian economy . {sent} the loss is not only in western canada but in communities like sault ste. marie at algoma steel where 1,500 jobs will be lost due to the government 's policy on energy . {sent} tory energy policy is the worst of all worlds . {sent} mines and mining {sent} cominco lay-offs in trail , b.c. {sent} the major regional employer , cominco , has laid off 500 employees this year alone in trail and at its lead mine in kimberley . {sent} the future of the area has been thrown into jeopardy by slumping would metal prices and by the inaction of both the provincial and federal governments over the years . {sent} so great is the uncertainty surrounding the future of the cominco operation and the future of the trail region that home mortgages are unavailable in some instances . {sent} while the federal government has indicated a willingness to assist in modernizing cominco 's antiquated smelter , it has been unable to work out a co-operative arrangement with the provincial government . {sent} the people of the west kootenays are calling for action by senior levels of government , not simply promises of action . {sent} agriculture {sent} world commodity situation -- farmers' need for assistance {sent} mr. brian white ( dauphin -- swan river ) : mr. speaker , the canadian farmer makes a tremendous contribution to canada 's balance of trade and its economic well-being . {sent} there are approximately 500,000 canadians employed directly in agriculture , and approximately 2 million employed directly or indirectly in agriculture and food . {sent} however , canadian farmers face an uncertain future because of the world agricultural commodity situation . {sent} the federal government has done a great deal for agriculture , but there is still much to be done in light of the current crisis . {sent} science and technology {sent} benefits derived from investment {sent} the result is that revenue and jobs that could have been available have gone to countries more technologically oriented than canada . {sent} in 1985 canada imported $ 12 billion more worth of high technology goods than we exported . {sent} we import 80 per cent of our machinery , 70 per cent of our transport equipment , 80 per cent of our scientific equipment , 80 per cent of our health equipment , and almost all our mining equipment . {sent} in the u.s. there are 19 technical persons per 1,000 manufacturing employees , in japan there are 12 , and in canada there are only 4 . {sent} investment in research and development will pay tremendous dividends . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} poultry industry {sent} kentville , n.s. -- rebuilding of research facility advocated {sent} mr. dave dingwall ( cape breton -- east richmond ) : mr. speaker , i want to bring to the attention of the house the request for government assistance from the chicken producers' association of nova scotia . {sent} in june , 1985 , a research building used to house a facility that developed better strains of poultry was destroyed by fire . {sent} the economy {sent} government 's performance {sent} a review has started of the excessive , obsolete , omnipresent , crushing and demoralizing body of regulations that business has to cope with . {sent} on the basis of the nielsen report , the standing committees of the house will soon be making recommendations to the parliament of canada to rid business of the burden imposed by a liberal bureaucracy . {sent} trade {sent} canadian lumber exports {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , a crucial vote may be taken in the u.s. senate finance committee tomorrow on fast track free trade negotiations with canada . {sent} in the british columbia northwest we have a unique opportunity to retool our mills for markets outside the united states . {sent} spruce pine fir from british columbia is recognized as the price-setting carburetor for north america . {sent} we should do all we can to diversify into the pacific rim , european , and other markets , due to our vulnerability to growing u.s. protectionism . {sent} the monarchy {sent} sixtieth birthday of her majesty the queen {sent} she has always had a reputation for congeniality and fairness toward all mankind . {sent} this charming and forthright individual has set foot on canadian soil 15 times in the past 35 years . {sent} she knows more about canada than many of our own inhabitants , having been the special guest at a myriad of events from coast to coast . {sent} this mother of four famous children , and grandmother of four , drives her own land rover , and can fire a gun with skill and precision . {sent} she is commander-in-chief of britain 's armed forces and head of the church of england . {sent} as the ruler of 49 commonwealth countries , she attends 400 engagements a year before the eyes of many thousands of grateful admirers . {sent} she is the world 's greatest and most beloved diplomat . {sent} on this , her sixtieth birthday , we send best wishes for a long and fruitful life . {sent} god save the queen ! {sent} long may she reign ! {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} the economy {sent} reduction in bank rate {sent} this development will bring about further reductions in canada , where the bank rate has been declining in the last few weeks . {sent} the reduction in the bank rate in the u.s. will certainly have an impact , since last friday , the bank of canada already announced a further reduction in the bank rate , from 9.33 per cent to 9.23 per cent . {sent} furthermore , the bank of montreal has announced a one-quarter point reduction in all mortgage rates . {sent} we have good reason to be optimistic , mr. speaker , and to believe that confidence is growing again in canada after so many years of confrontation and provocation under the previous liberal government . {sent} environmental affairs {sent} big rideau lake -- opposition to houseboat fleet proposal {sent} at a time when development along the shore of big rideau lake is carefully regulated because of a growing pollution problem , it is not acceptable to approve such an operation . {sent} residents and users of big rideau lake do not want this development . {sent} canadians in general reject overdevelopment in national parks . {sent} whether mountains or waterways the same principles apply : overcrowding means less enjoyment of the amenities , and the likelihood that irreversible damage will be done to the environment . {sent} the minister of the environment has the authority in this case . {sent} he should listen to the people affected by this proposal and put an end to the uncertainty by rejecting the proposal itself . {sent} national volunteer week {sent} importance of voluntary organizations {sent} mrs. lise bourgault ( argenteuil -- papineau ) : mr. speaker , today is the first day of national volunteer week . {sent} across canada , special events and announcements will reflect the economic and social impact the volunteer sector has on our daily lives . {sent} mr. speaker , hundreds of volunteers are working in the social , cultural , economic and sports sphere , helping the needy and supporting local activities . {sent} mr. speaker , the volunteer concept is so important and so widespread that our society could not function normally were it to disappear . {sent} i fervently hope that our government will set up a special committee , to determine how to provide effective assistance and support for our volunteer organizations and to identify their special needs . {sent} finally , i want to offer my sincere thanks to all volunteers , and especially to those in my riding of argenteuil -- papineau for their tireless dedication in our 53 municipalities . {sent} energy {sent} inquiry why price of gas in montreal is not the same as price in boston {sent} mr. speaker , this means there is a 50 per cent difference between boston and montreal . {sent} mr. speaker , quebecers want to know why the price can be reasonable in the united states , in boston , but not in montreal . {sent} consumer affairs {sent} credit card interest rate increases {sent} if these companies have a good explanation for raising interest charges now when bank and prime rates are falling , let them tell parliament and the people the reason for that . {sent} when the cost of institutional money is coming down why is the cost of consumer credit going up ? {sent} when inflation has stabilized , why do credit costs have to soar ? {sent} insurance {sent} liability coverage -- increased premiums {sent} another is the greed of the overseas reinsurers who have made plenty through the years and are now insisting on sky-high premiums . {sent} the canadian insurance industry , including the local agents , is caught in the squeeze . {sent} the economy {sent} free enterprise system results {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain ) : mr. speaker , the last two speakers have given good examples of what happens to people in a capitalist free enterprise conservative system . {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} oral question period {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- forthcoming u.s. senate committee vote {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : mr. speaker , in the absence of the prime minister i would like to direct my question to the deputy prime minister . {sent} it arises out of the u.s. senate vote tomorrow on the free trade issue . {sent} an hon. member : here he is . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : i will then direct my question to the prime minister . {sent} has the prime minister been on the telephone recently with the president of the united states about this issue ? {sent} what concessions is the u.s. administration planning in order to entice those senators to vote in favour of the fast track ? {sent} and would the prime minister be good enough to inform the house what those concessions might be ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : there have been no conversations , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : there have been no conversations with the president . {sent} request that prime minister meet premiers {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : i will change the subject . {sent} there have been no conversations between the president of the united states and our prime minister . {sent} will the prime minister be having conversations with his provincial counterparts to establish their position in the talks ? {sent} last week , he attacked the provincial premiers on the subject of trade barriers . {sent} does he intend to meet his provincial counterparts personally , and fairly soon , to clarify their situation in the trade talks with the united states ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i did not attack the provincial premiers last week . {sent} i invited them to eliminate trade barriers at the national and interprovincial levels . {sent} i therefore insisted on this phrase when i asked the provinces to make this unilateral gesture before trade talks with the americans or at the gatt level . {sent} and i think it would be a good thing for the canadian people . {sent} request for parliamentary debate {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. mulroney : i will wait for the applause to die down . {sent} an hon. member : the scattered applause . {sent} immigration {sent} russian army defectors in afghanistan {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , in the absence of the minister of employment and immigration i will direct my question to the minister of state for external affairs . {sent} it concerns the fate of six soviets who defected and who are now prisoners of war in afghanistan . {sent} in october , 1984 , the conservative government agreed to and authorized a rescue mission which was shamefully bungled and then subsequently cancelled , thus placing their lives in greater jeopardy . {sent} why was this mission allowed to be so mismanaged ? {sent} and who in the government , after granting the approval , called the shot to abort the mission ? {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , let me thank the hon. member for his welcome back to the house of commons . {sent} i have seen the news reports in the montreal gazette . {sent} i will not comment on all of them . {sent} i will just talk about the facts . {sent} the facts are that the government of canada has been working very vigorously , using every national and international instrument at our disposal , to try to come to the aid of those individuals . {sent} request for admission to canada {sent} will the secretary of state for external affairs give us an assurance today , without further delay , that he will send his officials to afghanistan armed with ministerial permits , and lift these six courageous men out of that country immediately ? {sent} a team of reporters has established contact with them ; they seek political refugee status in canada . {sent} it is not . {sent} oral questions {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- forthcoming u.s. senate committee vote {sent} my question is for the prime minister . {sent} in these circumstances of concern why has the prime minister not communicated directly with the president to discuss this urgent issue ? {sent} why has he not been prepared to put very clearly to the president a message that no concessions must be given that will harm our country ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i will take the last part of the hon. member 's question first . {sent} with regard to the other question raised by the hon. member , for the moment this is an internal american matter . {sent} our position has been made abundantly clear . {sent} we will not trade lumber , potatoes or fish against any advantage to secure a vote tomorrow . {sent} we are a sovereign nation , and not a bunch of mendicants as the ndp would suggest . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} prime minister 's position {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , we have never made a suggestion of that kind . {sent} we have suggested the contrary . {sent} my supplementary question is the following . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member has this thing backwards . {sent} our responsibility is to deal with the administration of the united states which was elected by the people of the united states . {sent} that is the one that is in place . {sent} we have dealt with it . {sent} that is clear . {sent} that is our responsibility . {sent} it now falls into the domain of the united states and its internal parliamentary system for the president of the united states to secure the appropriate approvals of congressional committees . {sent} he is charged , under the constitution and by custom , with doing that , and that is his responsibility . {sent} the administration has responded . {sent} we have responded . {sent} now we will see if the united states senate or members thereof view this trade matter with the same degree of importance as we do . {sent} communications with u.s. administration {sent} why has he not communicated directly with the american administration and made it very clear that concessions that will harm this country cannot be given ? {sent} why has there been no direct communication at such a crucial time ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , a shadow must have a very difficult time in a fight with my hon. friend . {sent} the fact of the matter is that we are not sitting back . {sent} we have not done anything that we view as unimportant . {sent} we have already made the case . {sent} that case was accepted by the president of the united states and the secretary -- {sent} mr. orlikow : but not by the congress . {sent} mr. mulroney : if my hon. friend from winnipeg would allow me to finish , i would be happy to try . {sent} our obligation is not to form a queue in senators' offices . {sent} members of the ndp are used to that but we will not do that . {sent} we are a sovereign nation . {sent} we made a deal with the president of the united states and we expect the united states to live up to it . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} canadian embassy actions {sent} does the prime minister now say that no canadian officials representing our government at the embassy in washington are to make contact with u.s. senators or congressmen ? {sent} has he given explicit orders that should be no contact whatsoever between embassy officials and officials of the congress ? {sent} is that what the prime minister is now saying ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i doubt if you would see a more blatant illustration of distortion and dishonesty than that which has been put forward . {sent} i said no such thing . {sent} i said that i had not spoken to the president of the united states , but i did not in any way utter any of the distortions mentioned by my hon. friend . {sent} diplomatic contacts {sent} hon. lloyd axworthy ( winnipeg -- fort garry ) : mr. speaker , i think the prime minister has just added a second distortion to his first one . {sent} in response to previous questions he said that he did not see any interference by this government in the affairs of the united states government . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , this gets progressively more pathetic . {sent} the hon. member was in washington last week with his senior colleague , the hon. member for saint-henri -- westmount , in regard to this matter . {sent} he knows full well that there is an ongoing operation , occurring every day -- {sent} mr. axworthy : so you 're interefering in their affairs then ? {sent} you said you weren't . {sent} softwood lumber exports {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , my question is also directed to the right hon. prime minister . {sent} i would like to learn from the prime minister whether or not the government of the united states has requested any specific concessions from canada on softwood lumber exports in the past two weeks . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : no , mr. speaker . {sent} canadian position {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , my supplementary question is directed to the right hon. prime minister . {sent} will he give the house his word that no concessions have been given , or will be given on the issue of softwood lumber , to the united states ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the gentleman speaks for a party which is opposed to freer trade with the united states . {sent} he is now trying to wrest ndp assurances . {sent} they cannot have it both ways . {sent} i know the ndp try it every day . {sent} they cannot have it both ways ; they are opposed to freer trade with the united states . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. mulroney : i have indicated in washington , and in other circumstances , that we will not allow the softwood lumber issue to be made a bargaining chip in these discussions , and that has been made clear . {sent} immigration {sent} russian army defectors in afghanistan {sent} ms. sheila copps ( hamilton east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the secretary of state for external affairs . {sent} he has just finished telling the house that he did everything in his power to expedite the arrival in canada of the six russian refugees from afghanistan . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member with a developing adeptness is changing the subject . {sent} we have been trying , using literally every instrument available to us , to get in contact with them . {sent} immigration from soviet bloc countries {sent} the only people who are not co-operating are the canadian government and the department of external affairs . {sent} since the government has taken power , there has been a reduction in immigration to canada from every soviet dominated and east bloc country . {sent} why has there been this reduction , when he talks about his government 's co-operation ? {sent} with regard to her earlier preamble , she has created facts on the floor of the house of commons which are not the case . {sent} what is germane here is whether or not there has now been discovered by some canadians an instrument which will allow us to bring those six individuals to freedom . {sent} we have not found one yet . {sent} if they have found one , we are anxious to work with them , and i invite them to join in consultation with us . {sent} trade {sent} steel exports to united states {sent} mr. simon de jong ( regina east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister for international trade . {sent} as well , will he assure us that the canadian government will assist canadian steel companies in the fight against pending anti-dumping measures in the united states ? {sent} we worked very closely with the industry in respect of the recent ruling in the united states . {sent} there has yet to be an injury ruling , and it is expected by the end of may . {sent} again we are working closely with the industry in respect of that finding . {sent} i can also tell the hon. member that , this afternoon , officials of ipsco are meeting with my officials to discuss these various problems and the upcoming hearings . {sent} canada-united states negotiations {sent} mr. simon de jong ( regina east ) : mr. speaker , my supplementary question is for the same minister . {sent} could he assure us that the canadian government will in no way cave in to the u.s. interests seeking to tie this issue to any free trade discussion as a precondition ? {sent} that just is not there . {sent} we are doing everything we can to assist the steel industry with the difficult problems which it is presently facing . {sent} airports {sent} firefighters' imminent strike {sent} hon. andré ouellet ( papineau ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of transport . {sent} at midnight , 1,400 firefighters at airports across the country will go on strike . {sent} what emergency measures have been taken by the minister to ensure that the safety of the travelling public will not be jeopardized by this strike ? {sent} in the event that there are any disruptions , adequate contingency plans will be in place . {sent} inquiry why firefighters have not had work contract for lengthy period of time {sent} hon. andré ouellet ( papineau ) : i have a supplementary , mr. speaker . {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , as i am sure the hon. member is aware , this is a matter for negotiation between the firefighters' union and the treasury board . {sent} those negotiations have been going on , and i would hope they would be able to reach a satisfactory conclusion soon . {sent} trade {sent} threatened use of subsidies to sell united states wheat to syria {sent} mr. lorne nystrom ( yorkton -- melville ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the right hon. prime minister and concerns an important western issue . {sent} is the prime minister aware that , by using the massive subsidies in the u.s. farm bill , the americans are poised to capture a very important traditional wheat market that was enjoyed by canadian farmers ? {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , i will comment on this particular issue because it came up at the oecd meetings last week in paris . {sent} the secretary of state for external affairs and i had an opportunity to discuss it with a number of ministers of foreign affairs , trade , and finance who were at the meetings . {sent} it is a matter which we expressed with a good deal of vigour because we are very concerned about the outcome . {sent} it is still early days to see how it might develop in the international discussions , but they are certainly aware of the point of view taken by canada . {sent} minister 's position {sent} mr. lorne nystrom ( yorkton -- melville ) : mr. speaker , my supplementary question is for the minister of finance . {sent} it was in that context that we raised it at the broad meetings as well as in individual meetings with ministers . {sent} energy {sent} effect of lower oil prices on small companies {sent} mr. bill attewell ( don valley east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of energy , mines and resources . {sent} with lower interest rates and falling commodity prices , there is a real risk that two-thirds of our smaller oil companies could be gobbled up by stronger multinational companies which control the other third . {sent} does the minister share this concern , and will our target of 50 per cent canadian ownership be in jeopardy ? {sent} hon. pat carney ( minister of energy , mines and resources ) : mr. speaker , yes , i have indicated before that we share the concern noted by the hon. member . {sent} we have increased our levels of canadianization in the oil and gas industry . {sent} we have not moved away from our target . {sent} our policies on acquisitions do not allow the acquisition of canadian companies unless they are in financial distress . {sent} i am encouraged by the fact that smaller canadian companies are going through merger processes and amalgamations themselves to build a stronger base from which to work in the future . {sent} administration of justice {sent} prosecution of journalist for airport activities {sent} hon. bob kaplan ( york centre ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of justice . {sent} does the minister feel that it is in the public interest for bertrand de la grange , a journalist , to be prosecuted for showing the inadequacy of the security systems at the airports at mirabel and dorval ? {sent} doesn't the minister think that mr. de la grange should be given the order of canada for finally getting the minister of transport to get serious about security ? {sent} hon. john c. crosbie ( minister of justice and attorney general of canada ) : mr. speaker , the allegation is that the person in question violated the law . {sent} for whatever reason hardly matters , that would only go to the matter of sentencing . {sent} having allegedly violated the law , surely some action should be taken . {sent} request for stay of prosecution {sent} hon. bob kaplan ( york centre ) : may i draw the minister 's attention , mr. speaker , to section 508 of the criminal code which gives him the authority to stay prosecutions in proper cases . {sent} let me ask the minister of justice whether he won't exercise the power he has to stay the prosecution , especially bearing in mind that this investigation was started by the rcmp and turned over afterwards to local police . {sent} hon. john c. crosbie ( minister of justice and attorney general of canada ) : mr. speaker , the hon. gentleman has some quite unusual suggestions today . {sent} i will consider the order of canada recommendation first . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} trade {sent} potential united states wheat sale to syria {sent} mr. rod murphy ( churchill ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister . {sent} in his response to the hon. member for yorkton -- melville , the minister of finance mentioned that the government had not specificially raised the potential u.s. wheat sale to syria . {sent} i ask again what is the government going to do to protect the traditional canadian market for canadian wheat going to syria ? {sent} canadian position {sent} the american program was instigated to regain traditional american markets -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} this is a preamble . {sent} just a question . {sent} mr. murphy : what is the canadian government going to do when the americans are not regaining their traditional markets but are taking our traditional markets ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i thought that the minister of finance made clear he had registered the disapproval of the government of canada with regard to the general issue . {sent} i have just undertaken to raise the specific problem within those parameters and will report to the house and my hon. friend . {sent} agriculture {sent} marketing of alfalfa pellets {sent} mr. brian white ( dauphin -- swan river ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of agriculture . {sent} can the minister assure the farmers involved in this new venture that the application is being processed as quickly as possible ? {sent} hon. john wise ( minister of agriculture ) : mr. speaker , i appreciate the hon. member 's interest and his continuing representation on behalf of the producers in his province . {sent} i am sure the member can take some satisfaction from the fact that the ongoing meetings between the particular association and the appropriate officials in my department are going well . {sent} there are four fairly straightforward criteria that have to be met . {sent} the information i have should not create a problem for the association to meet the criteria , and hopefully we will be in a position to give a positive response in the very near future . {sent} trade {sent} increase in japanese steel imports {sent} mr. maurice foster ( algoma ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of regional industrial expansion . {sent} the minister knows that the government 's industrial and energy policy is causing the lay-off of 1,500 people at algoma steel in sault ste. marie and threatens to shut down the mining operations at wawa . {sent} when is the government going to protect the jobs of canadian steelworkers ? {sent} hon. james kelleher ( minister for international trade ) : mr. speaker , i can advise the hon. member that the government is well aware of that problem -- {sent} mr. deans : you are aware of everything . {sent} mr. kelleher : -- and we have taken action . {sent} mr. deans : that is better . {sent} mr. kelleher : and we are continuing to take action . {sent} mr. deans : did they take their steel back ? {sent} mr. kelleher : when hon. members are prepared to listen , i am prepared to continue , mr. speaker . {sent} we have been meeting on a regular basis with the chief executive officers of the steel industry . {sent} indeed our last meeting was two weeks ago . {sent} we just received from them this past friday an indication of the action they would like us to take . {sent} we are presently preparing the necessary recommendations . {sent} i will be discussing those with my colleagues and i hope action will be forthcoming very shortly . {sent} fast track monitoring system {sent} mr. maurice foster ( algoma ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary question for the minister of regional industrial expansion . {sent} last july i wrote to the minister and asked him when he would put in place a fast track monitoring system for steel imports so that canadian steel producers could take action under the anti-dumping provisions of our law . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} mr. foster : when is he going to put that fast track system in place ? {sent} hon. james kelleher ( minister for international trade ) : mr. speaker , i can advise the hon. member that is the very thing we are looking at now . {sent} we hope to make recommendations in that regard very shortly , which will accomplish what the hon. member is requesting . {sent} unemployment insurance {sent} calculation of pension as income -- effect on early retirees {sent} mr. john r. rodriguez ( nickel belt ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of employment and immigration . {sent} i am sure the minister is well aware of the great hardship being created for early retirees , particularly ex-armed services personnel , in light of the changes to the unemployment insurance act . {sent} will the minister now accept her responsibility under that act and rescind that iniquitous change in the unemployment insurance act which came into effect in january , 1986 ? {sent} as he also knows , the whole issue has been referred to the forget commission to make recommendations to the government -- {sent} mr. orlikow : why was that necessary ? {sent} mr. fulton : the forget commission is not worth a damn . {sent} referral to forget commission {sent} mr. john r. rodriguez ( nickel belt ) : mr. speaker , can the minister tell the house why the matter was referred to the forget commission after the decision was made to make the change ? {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , the change was announced on november 8 , 1984 , long before the forget commission was set up . {sent} agriculture {sent} united states-european common market discussions {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister . {sent} will canadian ministers be involved in these talks , and will they be asking for changes in the u.s. farm bill and the european subsidy program which are so damaging to the canadian agricultural sector ? {sent} i think the member has had the answers from the minister of finance . {sent} in addition to that , the prime minister is very knowledgeable of the situation that exists . {sent} all appropriate means will be taken in the interest of canadian agriculture . {sent} that has been the case with this government and will continue to be in the future . {sent} possible canadian participation {sent} mr. don boudria ( glengarry -- prescott -- russell ) : mr. speaker , this meeting is going to be held in canada . {sent} will you be there or won't you ? {sent} mr. boudria : who is charlie mayer ? {sent} unemployment insurance {sent} request for coverage extension to part-time workers {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of employment . {sent} recent studies confirm the growing trend of employers to replace full-time jobs with low-paying part-time jobs , and most of these part-time jobs are held by women . {sent} mr. deans : what has that to do with it ? {sent} the figures not only show that a tremendous number of full-time jobs are being created , but also that the trend is improving . {sent} in 1980 , 29 per cent of the jobs were part-time . {sent} some hon. members : order , order ! {sent} miss macdonald : in 1981 , 32 per cent -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} ms. mitchell : mr. speaker , i trust that the press gallery also realizes that the minister did not answer the question . {sent} women workers {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , will the 21 per cent of workers who are part-time , many of whom are women , be covered by unemployment insurance ? {sent} what is the minister going to do about complete unemployment insurance benefits for part-time workers ? {sent} this is a tremendous benefit , particularly to women who are the heads of single parent families . {sent} mr. deans : will they get unemployment insurance ? {sent} miss macdonald : that certainly is a very good step in the right direction . {sent} trade {sent} possible imposition of united states customs user fees {sent} has the minister discussed this possibility with american officials ? {sent} these fees could have a serious adverse impact on trade relations between our nations . {sent} we have made the case that the implementation of the fees proposed would have a disproportionate negative effect upon canadians . {sent} our ministerial consultations will continue . {sent} the economy {sent} effect of budget measures {sent} why is the minister still satisfied with his strategy of taxing away income which would otherwise contribute to economic growth ? {sent} that is the broad strategy which we have followed , and i think it is the proper strategy to be following . {sent} personal tax increases {sent} miss aideen nicholson ( trinity ) : mr. speaker , sales tax and other tax increases will amount to a 27 per cent personal tax increase over the next two years . {sent} will the minister assure canadians that he is not going to pile on further personal taxes to deal with the expected shortfall as a result of lost oil revenues ? {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , i have addressed this question in the house before . {sent} the member is correct that there will be a reduction in direct revenues in the energy industry . {sent} however , there is also an offset with the reduction of interest rates which is taking place which will reduce our interest costs . {sent} there is a balance between these two items and i , therefore , do not see that there is any reason for us to address this question . {sent} corporate affairs {sent} ownership concentration {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of finance . {sent} due to the takeover of hiram walker by gulf , canadians will once again be watching as more and more control of the canadian economy falls into the hands of seven families . {sent} does the minister think it is right for a country like canada to have so much of its economic power concentrated in the hands of seven families ? {sent} hon. michel côté ( minister of consumer and corporate affairs and canada post ) : i am sorry , mr. speaker , i did not hear the question . {sent} mr. blaikie : it was for the minister of finance . {sent} he was listening . {sent} why doesn't he answer ? {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , my colleague was obviously having a private conversation with his seatmate . {sent} the specific question put to me by the hon. member is not within my realm of responsibility . {sent} i think the hon. member realizes that . {sent} effect of ownership concentration {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- auto pact inquiry {sent} hon. herb gray ( windsor west ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of state for international trade . {sent} hon. james kelleher ( minister for international trade ) : mr. speaker , as the hon. member well knows , in order to prepare for these discussions we have commissioned a number of reports . {sent} as a matter of fact , we made public the fact that the report has been obtained . {sent} it contains the opinion of the writer . {sent} the government has not acted on that report . {sent} when our negotiating position has been confirmed , we will act in a manner which is consistent with , and in the best interests of , all canadians . {sent} statement attributed to united states negotiator {sent} why will the minister not say clearly and unequivocally today that he does preclude such alterations , and that the auto pact will not be on the table in any comprehensive trade negotiations with the united states ? {sent} does he not realize that by his equivocation and silence he is telling the country he intends that the pact be on the table ? {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} order , please ! {sent} hon. james kelleher ( minister for international trade ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member has a selective memory . {sent} people should remember that . {sent} i replied at the time that the auto pact was indeed working very well for both countries . {sent} if something is working well , you do not try to fix it . {sent} corporate affairs {sent} sale of hiram walker to olympia & york -- request for clarification {sent} mr. w. paul mccrossan ( york-scarborough ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of consumer and corporate affairs . {sent} two days from now , it seems olympia & york will buy hiram walker . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the question is too long . {sent} that is what he intends to do , and if he has any reason to believe that the law has been infringed , he will of course start an investigation . {sent} employment equity {sent} points of order {sent} imasco status -- statement by minister {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the hon. minister of state for finance ( mrs. mcdougall ) gave me notice that she wished to raise a point of order . {sent} hon. barbara mcdougall ( minister of state ( finance ) ) : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} on friday , april 18 , in response to a question from the member for essex -- windsor ( mr. langdon ) , i may have unintentionally mislead the house . {sent} i thank him for bringing it to my attention privately . {sent} at that time i stated that imasco was classified as a canadian company under fira and investment canada . {sent} i would like to say for the record that imasco is deemed to have canadian status under investment canada but no similar status had been granted by fira . {sent} request for government response to report of standing committee -- speaker 's ruling {sent} the chair has had the opportunity to review the responses of the minister which were filed with the clerk of the house on march 7 , 1986 and april 18 , 1986 . {sent} the hon. member for spadina is certainly entitled to disagree with the responses , if that is his view , and he has other options and procedures available to him if he chooses . {sent} as far as the chair is concerned , the terms of standing order 99(2) have been met in this case and the chair ought not to intervene , except on the strictest procedural grounds . {sent} employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} mr. speaker : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} mr. speaker : the question is as follows -- {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} mr. speaker : the chair is now in some difficulty . {sent} mr. allmand : there was a lot of noise and i thought the hon. member for hamilton east ( ms. copps ) still had the floor . {sent} i know there were other people who wanted to speak on this amendment , and if they won't , i will . {sent} mr. speaker : i think the house knows that the chair is always in difficulty right after question period because there is a lot of noise . {sent} this would be a good time to remind the house that the whole procedure would be simplified if the house came to order as quickly as possible after question period . {sent} under the circumstances , i will recognize the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) on debate . {sent} hon. warren allmand ( notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ) : mr. speaker , i am surprised to have the floor again so quickly but i will be glad to speak . {sent} while most clauses of the bill are important , those three are the key to the enforcement of affirmative action and employment equity . {sent} furthermore , among those three clauses i suggest that clause 7 is the most important . {sent} as it now stands , clause 7 provides for a penalty of $ 50,000 to employers who fail to report pursuant to clause 6 of the bill . {sent} that , in effect , amounts to no penalty whatsoever for those who do not make progress on the implementation of employment equity . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i am trying to hear the hon. member 's speech . {sent} thank you . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , clause 7 of the bill applies a penalty only to those who fail to report to the minister . {sent} they are simply required to report on the composition of their labour force with respect to the designated groups . {sent} that clause does not apply any penalty to those who do not comply with clause 4 or clause 5 of the bill . {sent} those two clauses are of more importance to the advancement of employment equity . {sent} clause 4 is an integral part of the bill because it requires employers to implement employment equity through several proposed means . {sent} while it obliges employers to do something about employment equity , it provides for no penalty if no action is taken . {sent} clause 5 was included in the bill since the committee stage . {sent} it requires employers to prepare action plans with goals and timetables for employment equity . {sent} however , if action plans are not prepared as required by clause 5 , there is no penalty . {sent} one continues to hope that such steps will be taken . {sent} the hon. member also moved that the bill be returned to committee for reconsideration of clause 3 and clause 5 . {sent} clause 3 is a definition section of the bill . {sent} it defines an employer as one who has 100 or more employees . {sent} we have argued time and again that that floor level of 100 employees is too high because it excludes many federally regulated canadian firms with less than 100 employees . {sent} i pointed out this morning that affirmative action legislation in the united states includes all firms with 15 or more employees . {sent} i tried to amend this bill in committee so as to reduce the level of 100 employees to 25 employees , thereby not even going as far as the american legislation . {sent} witnesses before the committee suggested that 25 employees was a reasonable number on which to make a judgment on affirmative action or employment equity . {sent} however , the government and the parliamentary secretary would not listen to any arguments and insisted on keeping the level at 100 employees . {sent} as a matter of fact , that stipulation is not even consistent with our canadian labour legislation because the canada labour code defines an employer as one with five or more employees . {sent} we believe it is unacceptable that the definition would suddenly jump to 100 employees according to this bill . {sent} if the bill is sent back to committee , we hope that witnesses representing the target groups and others will convince the government that 100 is too high . {sent} again , we have argued that treasury board guidelines are not enough . {sent} if we are to have legislation covering the business sector with respect to affirmative action employment equity , then we should at least have that same legislation cover federal government employees . {sent} i suppose on that occasion they were intently listening and saw the good sense in the arguments that were put forward . {sent} they accepted an amendment to require employers to prepare action plans with goals and targets for employment equity . {sent} they all said this legislation was unacceptable unless there were some substantial amendments made to it . {sent} those amendments have not been made . {sent} the legislation is still more rhetoric than action oriented . {sent} it will not effectively put into place mandatory employment equity programs . {sent} it will not do the job . {sent} every independent group that has looked at it says the same thing . {sent} the minister this morning said that what she wanted was action and that this legislation represented action . {sent} nobody believes her when she says that . {sent} it does not do that . {sent} it requires further amendment . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : are there any questions or comments ? {sent} mr. mccurdy : may i ask the previous speaker , in consideration of the amendment that was introduced by the member for vancouver east ( mrs. mitchell ) , to indicate why clause 4 is excluded from the amendment for reference to committee . {sent} surely it is clear that both clauses 4 and 5 together constitute the action plan , because one consists of the process , that is clause 4 , and clause 5 describes the definition of goals that are necessary in order for the process to be successful . {sent} let me repeat the question . {sent} may we have an explanation of why clause 4 was not included in the reference ? {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i think the hon. member at the end of his remarks meant to ask why clause 4 is not included in the reference . {sent} he makes a good point . {sent} i would have no objection to including clause 4 , as it is also an important clause . {sent} i wanted to concentrate attention on several issues at this time . {sent} i agree with the hon. member that clause 4 is a key clause of this bill . {sent} it would be the guts of the bill if there was a penalty that applied if you did not do what is covered in clause 4 . {sent} the hon. member is correct in what he said . {sent} he makes good sense . {sent} we picked out three clauses at this time to refer back to the committee , but one could pick others as well , in particular , clause 4 . {sent} does he believe that the record of the federal government so far justifies omitting them from the legislation on the basis that they will continue , if they ever had done so , to implement affirmaive action within the public service ? {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , one of the reasons that the member for hamilton east included clause 3 in the amendment to refer the bill back to committee was that clause 3 deals with definitions including who or what is an employer . {sent} since that clause now exempts federal public servants we would like to see it amended to include them , not exempt them . {sent} we tried to put through an amendment in committee to do that . {sent} we tried to put through an amendment in this house at report stage . {sent} on both occasions members of the government voted down those amendments so that the bill still exempts federal public servants . {sent} we started a few years ago on employment equity with guidelines or directives under the treasury board . {sent} that was a good start , but it was before we had entrenched provisions in the constitution with respect to equality rights and affirmative action . {sent} it was before the abella report which says we should have legislation for both the public sector and the private sector . {sent} now is the time for legislation and it should apply to the public sector as well as to the private sector . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i was very happy to hear the comments by my colleague , the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grace -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) . {sent} i listened with interest this morning to the minister as she told us what the process of reporting would be . {sent} of course , that kind of employment equity will be assured and promoted by the company in question . {sent} i want to ask the hon. member about the reference made this morning by the minister to the census . {sent} in his opinion , is that sufficient to justify the government calling this bill the `` employment equity '' bill ? {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , this bill is a smoke and mirrors bill for many reasons , not just the reason suggested by the hon. member for ottawa-vanier ( mr. gauthier ) . {sent} if the minister thinks that she will be able to do something about employment equity on the basis of the census which is done every 10 years , she will not be able to do very much . {sent} on that basis , it is my hope that the information requested under clause 6 will be of more help and will supplement information gathered by the census . {sent} clause 6 states : {sent} on or before june 1 , 1988 and on or before june 1 of each year thereafter , every employer shall file with the minister a report in respect of -- {sent} and then it reers to the subclauses ( a ) , ( b ) , ( c ) and ( d ) under which information is requested from the employers . {sent} if the employers do not comply with clause 4 and clause 5 , nothing happens to them . {sent} on the other hand , if they do not send in their reports under clause 6 they are subject to a penalty , but that does not do anything but provide information to the public . {sent} however , judge abella pointed out very clearly that voluntary affirmative action does not work , nor does voluntary employment equity . {sent} we need a bill with teeth . {sent} we need legislation with sanctions for those who do not go ahead with employment equity . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the period for questions or comments has now terminated . {sent} debate . {sent} there has already been an amendment which would have made the bill somewhat more honest , but it was defeated . {sent} it would have described the legislation as one which has as its purpose the promotion of equality in the workplace . {sent} i do not know why it is necessary in the waning hours of the debate for the minister to insist that the bill does what it makes no attempt to do , and that it will bring forth results . {sent} it might just as well have been written in invisible ink or in the sand for all the good it will do in response to the needs of the people this legislation is suppose to serve . {sent} i speculated previously as to whether this bill is a result of stupidity or trickery . {sent} the purpose of the amendment under debate is to refer the bill back to committee for a specific examination of clauses 3 , 5 and 7 . {sent} clause 7 of the bill requires only that the government count the minorities , and count them twice , to find out which corporations are naughty or nice . {sent} that is not good enough . {sent} what we would ask is that clause 7 be made to apply not only to clause 6 , but to clauses 4 and 5 as well , and that the penalty apply . {sent} in other words , that it be mandatory and there be a penalty for failure to report on the demands set out in clauses 4 , 5 and 6 . {sent} let us examine those clauses . {sent} clause 4 requires that an employer shall , in consultation with employee representatives , develop a process for correcting employment inequities . {sent} there are two interesting things about clause 4 . {sent} the first is that there is no reference in it to any requirement in any context for consultation with members of the designated groups who , obviously , have a significant interest in the processes which are to be used . {sent} their interest is not only with respect to correcting imbalances in the distribution of minority employee groups within the corporation or company , but also with respect to hiring patterns . {sent} no one is required to know anything about it -- not the designated groups , not those who were consulted and not those who are responsible for hiring and promotion practices . {sent} i do not know what is thought will come from clause 4 if a process is developed and no one knows anything about it . {sent} matters become worse if one looks to clause 5 . {sent} it is reasonable that there should be goals and timetables . {sent} this has been repeated over and over again . {sent} i have already alluded to the peculiar nature of the bill in respect to the separation of the process from the goal . {sent} be that as it may , we have here a provision which , for all intents and purposes , ensures that the goals and timetables to which the processes are supposed to be directed will themselves be kept secret . {sent} they will be kept from those who have the greatest concern about them . {sent} surely , clause 7 should apply to clauses 4 and 5 if we are to have a piece of legislation which can be truly described as an employment equity bill . {sent} let us now look at clause 3 . {sent} clause 3 is at the beginning of the bill and shows where the government began to run into difficulty . {sent} first , there is the fact that this legislation will apply only to employers who employ more than 100 employees . {sent} others have already spoken in strong affirmation of the necessity to lower this number . {sent} they have referred to the pattern in the united states . {sent} there may be disagreement about what specific number should be chosen . {sent} however , it should be clear that in choosing the number 100 there is a deliberate effort to exclude the vast majority of employers who have any prospect of hiring significant numbers of employees these days . {sent} perhaps the most unacceptable omission from clause 3 is the omission with respect to the federal public service . {sent} others have spoken about the discrimination involved in which this employer is excluded from the legislation because , of course , it has the power to exclude itsself from it . {sent} at the same time it demands that other employers adhere to the requirement of the legislation , however inadequate those provisions may be . {sent} if one believes that the federal public service has become nirvana for visible minorities , women , native people and the disabled , then one should consider the record . {sent} we have heard about the fact that however few disabled are employed by the federal government , some 75 per cent of them are on contract and can be dismissed with ease . {sent} we are very familiar with the sorry record of the federal government with respect to the employment of native people , except under circumstances in which the demands are clear and unequivocal . {sent} however , we have not heard a great deal about the federal government 's record with respect to visible minorities . {sent} i would remind hon. members that until a few years ago visible minorities were not even mentioned by the federal government in any context with respect to affirmative action . {sent} the government is cutting back on the civil service . {sent} it is retrenching and getting rid of its employees . {sent} what is going on ? {sent} the record of the federal public service with respect to the visible minorities is well documented in correspondence to the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) from the caucus for the recognition and improvement of blacks . {sent} this is a group of federal civil servants whose members are from the visible minorities . {sent} even then the situation with respect to visible minorities was somehow ignored . {sent} somehow they were forgotten . {sent} however , there are ways in which they are not being forgotten , as is documented by the caucus for the recognition and improvement of blacks . {sent} they are now being laid off in far greater numbers and proportion than other employees of the public service . {sent} we now have a trend which has been noticed in the latest exercise where people have been suddenly dropped in the ratings . {sent} this is being disproportionately applied to members of the visible minorities . {sent} the author of this correspondence states : {sent} i have in my hand page after page of documentation which sets out complaints about the record of the federal government with respect to the treatment of visible minorities . {sent} and yet the government would exclude the federal public service from this legislation . {sent} this bill should go back to committee so that it can be made into a bill rather than a bill of goods . {sent} this bill should go back to committee so that it will provide for mandatory affirmative action . {sent} let us stop playing this game in which the minister smirks , because it is a smirk that can be misunderstood . {sent} one may think the minister is smirking in pride over what has been accomplished through this legislation , but the contrary is true . {sent} that smirk indicates the feeling any salesman has when he sells a bill of goods to someone who does not know what he is getting . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions or comments ? {sent} since there are no questions or comments , we shall resume debate . {sent} hon. lloyd axworthy ( winnipeg -- fort garry ) : mr. speaker , this could have been an historic day for the house of commons . {sent} it could have been a day on which we would finally deal with a major piece of legislation dealing with the problems of equality for all those who have suffered disadvantage and discrimination . {sent} however , it is not . {sent} it is a side-track , a slip-stream and an evasion of responsibility . {sent} i do not use those words lightly . {sent} like many members of parliament , i have seen over the years a series of efforts designed to make progress in the workplace of canada , the fundamental basis for economic and social equality . {sent} the opportunity for an equal chance in the market-place is the fundamental premise of any efforts to achieve a broader system of equity and fairness . {sent} unfortunately , this bill speaks of a broad pattern of retreat on the part of the minister of employment and immigration ( miss macdonald ) . {sent} she spoke of what she and her colleagues would do if and when they formed a government . {sent} well , they have formed a government . {sent} let us look at the record of the government over the past two years . {sent} we are all aware of the incredibly harsh and severe decision that was made regarding unemployment insurance benefits as they affect pension privileges . {sent} we are aware of the distortion that this has caused in the market-place . {sent} it is offsetting any opportunities for early retirement . {sent} we have seen what happened with the so-called jobs strategy . {sent} all of the special programs designed to help women receive training opportunities and to help the handicapped receive special access to the workplace have now been eliminated and cancelled . {sent} under the summer jobs program and the canada works program , it used to be a requirement that every person proposing a project table an affirmative action plan . {sent} those requirements have all been wiped away . {sent} perhaps the greatest retreat we have seen is on the question of employment equity . {sent} that is mainly because the minister has broken the momentum . {sent} even earlier than 1980 , the bird commission first identified these problems . {sent} it was part of a whole set of precedents , an evolutionary process that allowed over the years certain practices in the workplace . {sent} foremen would hire their nephews and not their nieces , there was apprehension at seeing someone in a wheelchair . {sent} there was no recognition of the need for remedial training for those with certain cultural backgrounds . {sent} by the end of the 1970s and the early 1980s , those things were recognized . {sent} the question was what to do about them . {sent} i can recall very vividly taking over a department in which there was a voluntary affirmative action program . {sent} we were providing resources and assistance to the private sector to work out affirmative action plans . {sent} it became quite clear that that did not work . {sent} at one point in 1980 , only 35 or 40 contracts were signed . {sent} we had to ask ourselves why this was so . {sent} at the time , i met with a number of private-sector organizations and asked what it was that prevented them from carrying on with voluntary affirmative action . {sent} they recognized the problem but i wondered what it was that was stopping them from doing anything about it . {sent} it came down to a fundamentally human problem . {sent} they said that they did not practise affirmative action because it was too costly , and unless their competitors were also required to practise it , they would be at a disadvantage . {sent} many employers told me that even though they would like to do it and were prepared to do it , unless they were required to do it they would not do it . {sent} this goes back to some pretty basic matters of political philosophy . {sent} it is not their responsibility . {sent} the answer came to us and it was very clear . {sent} the only way the system would work is if all employers were required to begin following affirmative action plans . {sent} the private sector asked how this should be done . {sent} businessmen wondered what would be the best way of applying affirmative action . {sent} they said very clearly that the federal government must take the lead by showing them the best system . {sent} we began to do it . {sent} in 1980 , we introduced a trial program in three departments of the federal public service . {sent} we tested out a complete and comprehensive affirmative action requirement on three key departments . {sent} once we began to see the success of that program , we then issused an order in council which required that it be undertaken in the entire public service of canada . {sent} those steps were an important prelude to what i think was the next most important step taken , and that was the establishment of the abella commission . {sent} the terms of reference of the abella commission were crucial . {sent} it was not just another study or inquiry . {sent} the mandate of the abella commission was that it was to come up with a working formula that would apply to all activities under federal jurisdiction . {sent} i consider that to be one of the most important decisions made by the cabinet while i was the minister of employment and immigration . {sent} momentum had been created step by step . {sent} private employers could no longer use the excuse that affirmative action did not work , because we showed that it could work in the public service . {sent} they asked us for an example , and we gave it to them . {sent} then we took the next major step by appointing the abella commission and we asked judge abella to talk to those in the corporate sector and return to us with a working formula . {sent} that was the clear logic and compelling message of judge abella . {sent} the government which assumed office in 1984 had that momentum upon which to build . {sent} it had the series of successive steps which had been taken . {sent} in response to a question by my colleague from toronto , she said that the previous government had done nothing at all . {sent} she should have indicated that very important steps have been taken . {sent} this bill could have been a capstone to pull together all those elements . {sent} instead , it is a retreat , a withdrawal , or a side-step . {sent} she is directly responsible for having broken the momentum . {sent} when will we get a chance again ? {sent} some people will say that the legislation is now in place , but i believe that the forward movement or the sense of forward progress has been rechannelled . {sent} we are really reverting back to what we had in the 1970s and 1980s . {sent} in effect , it is voluntary and up to the good intentions of individual employers to make it work . {sent} how can they revert to something that has already been proven not to work ? {sent} why do they ignore history ? {sent} ms. mitchell : they make the same mistakes as the liberals . {sent} mr. axworthy : that indicates the stupidity of the ndp on matters such as this one ; we both believe in the same thing and yet they make silly remarks . {sent} ms. mitchell : why only three departments ? {sent} mr. axworthy : i just explained that . {sent} it is too bad the hon. member does not listen ; it is unfortunate that she does not listen . {sent} i am making a speech in the house because i believe deeply in what we are trying to accomplish . {sent} we were making progress . {sent} we knew what we had to face . {sent} there was strong opposition in the private sector . {sent} we had to show that they could work . {sent} we had to give the private sector a demonstration , and we have succeeded in doing that . {sent} we had to build up a consensus and show that progress was being made . {sent} ms. mitchell : and back away from mandatory . {sent} mr. axworthy : i realize that members of the ndp and the conservative party do not believe in developing that kind of practical common sense . {sent} i point out to the hon. member that some of her colleagues in the provinces have been less than progressive . {sent} guess who opposed it at that time , mr. speaker . {sent} ms. mitchell : not the ndp . {sent} mr. axworthy : members of the provincial government which she supports , because they were not interested in making that kind of progress . {sent} ms. mitchell : not the ndp -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} there will be time for questions and comments after the hon. member finishes his speech . {sent} i should like to hear what he has to say . {sent} the hon. member for winnipeg -- fort garry ( mr. axworthy ) has the floor . {sent} mr. axworthy : mr. speaker , i appreciate your willingness to listen to this important debate . {sent} i am glad someone is prepared to listen . {sent} certain members of the ndp have forgotten long ago how important listening is . {sent} at this point in time there is a willingness in the country to accept a change . {sent} i believe the business community has been sufficiently softened up . {sent} mr. kilgour : tell us about it . {sent} mr. axworthy : i will tell the hon. member about it . {sent} i have spent a lot of time working with that community on it . {sent} the hon. member for edmonton -- strathcona ( mr. kilgour ) is allowing the editorials in the edmonton journal to go to his head . {sent} the fact is that we had acquired and obtained a recognition or an agreement on what choices and decisions should be made . {sent} when the bill was ready to be brought forward , a consensus was in place . {sent} however , the government stepped away from that consensus and fragmented that agreement . {sent} i should like to return to the debate of the minister of employment and immigration on second reading . {sent} she said that it was just a start and that we should come to committee with amendments . {sent} she said that she was open , prepared to make changes , and wanted to listen to the groups . {sent} we have heard what the groups indicated before the committee . {sent} they repeated what was indicated by the abella commission , that we required a comprehensive , univerally applied program at least within the federal jurisdiction . {sent} however , that was ignored . {sent} therefore , any pretext that this will somehow further eliminate or reduce systemic discrimination in the country is a falsehood . {sent} it will not work . {sent} aside from the individual cases of frustration and sense of alienation which many people in the workplace now feel , we will also lose an incredible amount of talent . {sent} we will be losing the abilities which people could have put in place had they been given the opportunities that a real affirmative action program would have provided . {sent} the talents and abilities which they could bring in terms of new jobs and occupations will be lost . {sent} as was the case in the past , they will be pushed to the margin . {sent} we will lose those talents . {sent} in other words , we are guilty of considering today at final reading stage a bill which does nothing to open the door to the full talents and abilities of canadians . {sent} we are still saying to over a third of canadians that we really do not need them or want them in the workplace . {sent} if we want them , it is only in a marginal way . {sent} the real message in the bill is that we will maintain a closed system and only allow them into the cracks and crevices , not into the mainstream . {sent} that is the problem in relation to the bill on employment equity . {sent} we need those people and their talents and abilities . {sent} we also need to ensure that we have a piece of legislation which keeps open the door and provides the incentive and support to make it happen . {sent} instead , we are reverting , retreating or withdrawing back to a previous age and a previous set of concepts and notions . {sent} the canadian human rights commission will tackle the problems one on one . {sent} some companies will put information in front of everybody , and many will say that we must rely upon the court of public opinion , which has a fat chance of working . {sent} i can only rise and say that this debate has been an incredibly frustrating and disappointing process . {sent} i only hope that a lesson has been learned , and that lesson is that if we are to do a job , let us do it properly and effectively . {sent} mr. mccurdy : mr. speaker , i was rather surprised to hear the member for winnipeg -- fort garry ( mr. axworthy ) indicate that new democrats and liberals believe the same thing . {sent} i am sure that is true from odd week to odd week . {sent} there are few in the house who would not recognize that in general with respect to women , the disabled and native people , such a momentum was developed . {sent} with the exception of nova scotia , no such program was implemented . {sent} there was a consistent denial of the concerns and needs of visible minority groups with respect to employment in the federal public service . {sent} certainly they were not given the kind of attention that was needed in fostering employment equity . {sent} it was directed toward women and others among the designated groups . {sent} perhaps he can explain and accord us some understanding of that policy and why that was the case . {sent} why were the visible minorities excluded from a deliberate program of affirmative action in the public service by the previous government ? {sent} mr. axworthy : mr. speaker , that is a fair question . {sent} because of the merit system principle that was put in the legislation , the question of visible minority status was not recorded . {sent} matters of sex , male and female , were , but it was not a requirement when someone made application or that they be designated on their file as a `` visible minority '' . {sent} that was the rationale at the time . {sent} it seemed to me after looking at the rationale for a period of about 18 months or two years that it was not acceptable . {sent} i would remind the hon. member that when we established the abella commission , visible minorities were part of the terms of reference . {sent} it was the first major recognition of the importance of affirmative action for that group . {sent} i can recall having discussions with a gentleman , whom the hon. member probably knows , tom sosa , who at that time was chairperson of the advisory committee for the department of employment and immigration . {sent} he made recommendations to me about the establishment of this commission , which clearly emphasized the importance of having visible minorities as part of it , and they were included in the terms of reference of the abella commission . {sent} the abella commission , which was established by our government , clearly had within it the requirements that visible minorities be incorporated as part of any affirmative action program that would be introduced . {sent} mr. keeper : mr. speaker , just before the conservative government came into office the liberal party had been in office a good number of years . {sent} yet we find today that there are very few women in senior positions in the public service . {sent} how does he expect us to believe the protestations of his party when his own party lived for so many years with the inequality that exists in the workplace today ? {sent} mr. axworthy : mr. speaker , i do not know whether the hon. member for winnipeg north centre ( mr. keeper ) was here during my remarks but i went through the steps that we have taken . {sent} mr. keeper : with what results ? {sent} mr. allmand : the human rights act in 1977 . {sent} each year and each time a series of steps were being taken to correct the problems when and if they did not work . {sent} i explained the initial attempt , which was to develop a voluntary affirmative action program , but it did not work . {sent} the hon. member may be perfect and all-seeing and all-knowledgeable , but we as liberals do not pretend to have that omniscience . {sent} as minister of employment and immigration -- ibecame responsible for that department in 1980 -- i saw that the voluntary program was not working and initiated steps to make it work . {sent} we had asked the private sector why it was not working , and i explained the reasons given . {sent} we then took the necessary action . {sent} we started the clear demonstration programs within our own departments to show them it could work . {sent} we then established the abella commission to work out a formula which would ensure that it was applied to all companies within the federal jurisdiction . {sent} that committee reported on the ways in which to bring back contract compliance . {sent} a series of progressive steps have been taken to improve the condition substantially . {sent} this opportunity , resulting from the abella commission , could have been a capstone to that . {sent} it could have brought all those strands together into one very important initiative , and that is what has been lost . {sent} employment equity {sent} proceedings on adjournment motion {sent} subject matter of questions to be debated {sent} employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} ms. margaret mitchell ( vancouver east ) : mr. speaker , this is the fourth time i have risen to speak on this very important bill , bill c-62 , with regard to employment equity . {sent} as the critic responsible for the status of women , i have a very particular concern about how it will or will not affect opportunities for canadian women . {sent} my riding of vancouver east has one of the largest representations of urban native people , second only to winnipeg . {sent} there are also a very large number of people who represent other visible minorities , not to mention many low-income people and many handicapped persons . {sent} i have , indeed , a great deal of concern about this bill . {sent} we had all hoped that it would have true meaning for these groups and would present opportunities as never before , at least for employment in jobs which fall under federal jurisdiction . {sent} i regret to say that speaker after speaker and witness after witness has pointed out that this is not the case . {sent} it is very unfortunate that , as a precedent setting bill , it falls so short of what minority groups need and want . {sent} i would like to take some time to refer to some of the comments made by the minister this morning . {sent} i was working in my office and could not help but want to respond to some of the comments she made . {sent} she said : `` is enabling legislation , not a set of rigid guidelines '' . {sent} we certainly know that it is not a set of rigid guidelines . {sent} she quoted judge abella who said that the government must be aggressive , vigilant , and open-minded . {sent} unfortunately , she did not continue quoting the judge 's comments . {sent} in equality in employment at page 195 , judge abella said : {sent} a voluntary program with a mandatory reporting requirement is nonetheless voluntary in the absence of a requirement to remedy the discriminatory practices disclosed by the information reported . {sent} she goes on to say : {sent} -- it is unrealistic to rely on public opinion as an effective monitoring agent . {sent} she also says : {sent} voluntary programs in the federal government have had little impact on the composition of the public sector workforce . {sent} we agree with the minister that data and information are important , but they are only important if the process does not start here . {sent} it must lead to action and to results for the target groups which i have mentioned . {sent} it must lead to systemic changes in the institutions , corporations , or businesses which are employing people . {sent} this bill does not provide for that . {sent} for example , what difference does it make if a company meets the deadline for reporting and shows how many or how few women it has in middle-management positions or non-traditional jobs ? {sent} otherwise , i am sure no employer will take employment equity very seriously . {sent} companies will probably hire a few token women in order to avoid embarrassment . {sent} this is not systemic change , and is not an adoption of employment equity policy . {sent} this is like the prime minister 's ( mr. mulroney ) approach to employment equity of appointing one or two more women to a board in order to keep them quiet . {sent} yet there is not really a major systemic change . {sent} we do not even have a woman minister responsible for the status of women . {sent} the minister talked about how difficult it is to deal with this because it is , in effect , hidden . {sent} i agree with her . {sent} even if there is provision to use the canadian human rights commission , the role of that organization has been to deal with individual complaints on a case by case basis . {sent} the minister also suggested that public disclosure would make the discrimination public , and that the target groups or the canadian human rights commission could then take action . {sent} why should they have to do this ? {sent} if a mandatory employment equity agreement is made with the federal government for every company and crown corporation in its jurisdiction , there should be no need for this . {sent} we know that target groups do not have resources . {sent} the minister of justice ( mr. crosbie ) has not even given them any money for their test cases on equality under the charter of rights . {sent} how will they get money to appeal the complaints with regard to employment equity ? {sent} believe me , there will be many , many complaints . {sent} even though there have been some increases in the resources of the canadian human rights commission , it has never had enough resources to deal with this . {sent} we need systemic change , and this bill is far from even considering that . {sent} in that way women and minorities will be assured access to jobs whenever there is an opening , and to promotions whenever they should be eligible for them . {sent} there must be penalties for lack of compliance by companies such as banks , railways , telephone companies , airlines and all those companies that come under federal jurisdiction . {sent} yet this bill only requires that a report must be filed at the proposed time . {sent} many changes are needed . {sent} the minister says that she will knock with a big fist on the doors of employers that show progress . {sent} i wish her good luck because she will have to do a lot of heavy door knocking two or three years from now , just at the time when she will be knocking on doors in her constituency . {sent} i am not convinced that gentle persuasion will bring any results . {sent} the liberals have proven that there will be absolutely no results because we saw under the liberal administration that voluntary affirmative action does not work . {sent} they put forward many recommendations to improve the bill , yet many of the amendments were turned down by the government . {sent} they spoke repeatedly about the need for more enforcement of employment equity . {sent} the urban alliance on race relations outlined five initiatives that are missing from the bill . {sent} second , there should be mandatory programs for all four sectors rather than voluntary programs with mandatory reporting . {sent} fourth , equal pay for work of equal value should be a condition for contracting . {sent} fifth , affirmative action programs should be a condition of all loans , grants and receipt of cost-sharing moneys . {sent} this should be expanded to many more employers on which the federal government has some influence . {sent} many labour groups , including the clc , spoke very strongly about the need to negotiate employment equity as part of collective bargaining . {sent} this has also been completely disregarded by the government . {sent} the hon. member for winnipeg -- fort garry seemed to be a little hostile when i interjected during his remarks . {sent} however , i was quite sure that he neglected to explain convincingly why he and his liberal government did not introduce legislation to achieve employment equity in a real sense . {sent} when he was the minister of employment and immigration he talked about mandatory affirmative action . {sent} there was no contract compliance . {sent} furthermore , affirmative action was implemented in only three departments of the federal government . {sent} that does not make sense because there are many people in the target groups who wanted jobs in other departments . {sent} why is employment equity taking so long ? {sent} i have found it difficult to understand why it was possible for the liberal government to do such an effective job in achieving mandatory bilingual policies in the federal public service . {sent} they have been successfully implemented in all departments of the federal government . {sent} yet it was unable to achieve employment equity for women , native people , visible minorities and the disabled . {sent} before i finish my remarks , i want to move the following amendment on behalf of my party : {sent} that the amendment be amended by inserting after the number 3 , the number 4 . {sent} in the time i have left -- {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} once the hon. member proposes an amendment , she must stop her debate . {sent} ms. mitchell : if you would agree , mr. speaker , i could leave the amendment until the end of my remarks . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : you will leave it until the end of your speech ? {sent} ms. mitchell : i did not understand . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : that is fine . {sent} ms. mitchell : mr. speaker , i want to pay particular attention to the question of equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} i think it is disgraceful that women still earn 60 cent dollars in canada today and , as my colleague pointed out a few minutes ago , the situation is even getting worse . {sent} the minister responsible for the status of women , ( mr. mclean ) has spoken out strongly for equal pay for work of equal value , saying that this is necessary and just . {sent} only last week he said : {sent} equality and social justice require that all canadians be given a fair chance to make their own way in society . {sent} he is in favour of equal pay for work of equal value but has never advocated that this be part of the bill . {sent} they state that adequate resources must be allocated to ensure compliance . {sent} the abella report stressed the same points and went on to advocate strongly that this should be part of employment equity programs . {sent} yet the minister repeatedly ignored these recommendations and refused to implement them . {sent} it has been proven repeatedly that enforcing these provisions under the canadian human rights act is ineffective . {sent} that act would not cover all employees that should be covered under this bill . {sent} we very much regret the lack of enforcement provided by this bill . {sent} i have attempted to point out those items of particular concern from a woman 's point of view . {sent} in closing , i move : {sent} that the amendment be amended by inserting after number 3 , the number 4 . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i find a difficulty with the subamendment to the subamendment . {sent} i know that the hon. members will try to convince me that what they are doing is the right thing . {sent} the chair is always ready for arguments as to whether the amendment to the amendment is in order . {sent} could i have arguments on this point ? {sent} mr. nystrom : mr. speaker , what the hon. member for vancouver east ( ms. mitchell ) is trying to do is to have clause 4 looked at again by the house . {sent} the liberal amendment originally had clauses 3 , 5 and 7 being reviewed by the committee . {sent} what the member for vancouver east is saying is to add clause 4 . {sent} i think there is a possibility that some people may advise you that this adds something different and something new to the amendment . {sent} there might be previous rulings to this effect . {sent} my argument would be that clause 4 is not really new . {sent} it is very much a part of the package . {sent} you cannot review clauses 3 , 5 and 7 without reviewing clause 4 . {sent} it is part of the whole process . {sent} clauses 4 and 5 are together in terms of this legislation . {sent} i think it was an oversight by the liberal party in the first place when it did not include clause 4 as part of its review . {sent} i think it is all interrelated . {sent} all you are doing is making a rather imperfect amendment more perfect . {sent} it simply adds another clause to that particular amendment . {sent} i would submit , mr. speaker , for your consideration that perhaps the subamendment may be in order , but it would perhaps have come at a better time if it were put following a complete round of speakers on the first amendment . {sent} he says that clause 4 can stand alone . {sent} the subamendment has to be looked at in context . {sent} first of all , the motion of the official opposition would have clause 7 re-examined . {sent} it is its intention to have clauses 5 to 7 referred for re-examination to the committee . {sent} if the motion should lose and clause 7 is not referred for further consideration , then you would end up with a situation in which the penalties that the opposition would seek to have would not apply to clause 4 . {sent} further , let us give greater emphasis to what was said before ; clauses 4 and 5 constitute part of the same process . {sent} what we have in clause 4 is the requirement that the employer develop a process for achieving employment equity . {sent} if the opposition amendment should lose , it would throw into limbo any prospect for serious consideration of clause 4 , which is the subject of the subamendment . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i appreciate all of the hon. members helping me out in reaching a decision on this ruling . {sent} i would like to reserve my ruling for later on today . {sent} in the meantime we will carry on with debate . {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , it was certainly quite an exercise in parliamentary debate on the amendment to the subamendment of the amendment to the subamendment . {sent} i feel obligated to participate in this third reading of bill c-62 because i had the opportunity of being involved in the second reading debate and in the work of the legislative committee . {sent} i listened and received representations from the four target groups that the legislation addresses . {sent} i was involved as well in the report stage . {sent} i must say at the beginning of my remarks that the process has been a frustrating one . {sent} witness after witness came forward and suggested ways for this parliament to strengthen this particular piece of legislation . {sent} that is why it was frustrating , and perhaps futile , because the message came back again and again , but the members were not listening . {sent} not only did it come during this process , but we have had various reports such as that of the abella commission , which i think articulated a progressive solution to what we speak of today . {sent} it was bold and courageous and the expectations that were created were very great . {sent} that is why we find today a great deal of disappointment among the canadian community because this piece of legislation does not even come close to adopting some of the recommendations of the abella commission . {sent} these witnesses and these community groups that came before us in this process also came before us during the preparation of the equality now report , the equality for all report , and also the obstacles report in past parliaments . {sent} these groups and these individuals are asking themselves , and are asking their representatives in this chamber : how many times do we have to come to ottawa to explain our case ? {sent} how many times must we tell you what the problems are ? {sent} how many times and how forceful can we be in terms of suggesting a solution to our problems in this country ? {sent} they have come time and time again and at great expense . {sent} they have used their energies and the efforts of their organizations , which are not the more wealthy or well financed organizations in this country . {sent} they used the resources they had in a very genuine , straightforward and frank manner , and we let them down profoundly . {sent} as opposition critic for multiculturalism , i can tell you , mr. speaker , what they said . {sent} two major organizations came before the committee . {sent} the canadian ethnocultural council said that it is difficult to envisage how a voluntary approach will substantially improve employment opportunities for the visible minorities . {sent} the chairman of the coalition of employment equity for persons with disabilities said last monday , and i quote : {sent} this bill will do nothing more than provide the government with employment information . {sent} it will in no way implement employment equity as there are no penalties for failing to comply with employment equity plans . {sent} we have tried everything . {sent} the government has not responded to any of our demands . {sent} if the bill is not renamed , the coalition demands that it be withdrawn . {sent} no one in this house can say it any better than that . {sent} we can imagine the frustration of sitting through that process and seeing absolutely no movement at all . {sent} we cannot blame these people for asking why this piece of legislation was introduced . {sent} why bill c-62 ? {sent} why name the four target groups ? {sent} why does the government say it is championing the rights of these canadians in these four target groups ? {sent} why say that after these four target groups have said that this legislation will not help ? {sent} they are saying that this legislation will not improve the lots of these individuals , and they are right . {sent} why have a piece of legislation for the sake of having legislation which is used as window dressing ? {sent} it is just used in a public relations type of way so that the government can say : `` look at what we have done for these groups '' . {sent} these four target groups and other canadians who have participated in the process are not that gullible or naive . {sent} they know when they have effective legislation and when they do not . {sent} they have told parliament and the government that this legislation is not adequate . {sent} therefore , it must be incumbent upon members of this house to listen to those concerns and perhaps put ourselves in their place . {sent} we must realize what their day-to-day struggles are and ask ourselves how we would react if we were one of those individuals who came before the committee . {sent} if we did that , i think we would have a greater degree of appreciation for and sensitivity to the representations made before the committee , rather than simply listening and not moving on the recommendations . {sent} we must also examine our own hearts as invidual members of parliament . {sent} we all know that one of the major concerns we face in our responsibility as members of parliament is the whole question of employment . {sent} we face a number of individuals each and every week in our constituency offices . {sent} individuals write , phone and visit us and all ask if we can give any assistance to them , their relatives or friends who are seeking gainful employment . {sent} we know their frustration . {sent} we know their loss of hope . {sent} we know that , to a certain degree , the measure of one 's self worth and dignity is in part related to the whole question of employment . {sent} a working life is a fruitful and fulfilling life . {sent} we all realize that that is the biggest problem facing us as members of parliament individually and collectively . {sent} i believe most of us accept that responsibility . {sent} that is a defeating type of blow which is difficult to overcome . {sent} we must understand that . {sent} we should be able to point to this legislation in a proud manner which transcends partisan politics . {sent} we should be able to have a good deal of pride in the legislation . {sent} but we cannot have pride in bill c-62 in its present form . {sent} it does not help the debate when individuals talk about what the liberal government did five years ago or what the conservative government did 40 years ago . {sent} it does not further the lot of these four target groups . {sent} what we should realize is that here is the window of opportunity . {sent} we should work together to ensure that the legislation will meet the expectations created by the abella commission . {sent} but when it does not , no one in the house can rise and beat his or her chest saying : `` i am proud to stand up today because we have bill c-62 '' . {sent} they are saying to us : `` maybe these problems are not for you , but they are for me and for the other people who find themselves in my circumstances '' . {sent} they are canadians . {sent} we have a fairly progressive country known as canada . {sent} but not all is well , certainly when there are complaints by those individuals who say that they cannot find employment because of the items we have listed . {sent} it is simply not good enough to look the other way and give them bill c-62 and say : `` we have dealt with your problems . {sent} let 's move on to other ones '' . {sent} in addressing these concerns , and in trying to articulate those which were made as representations to the committee , we moved amendments to the bill . {sent} we were not attempting to oppose for the sake of opposing . {sent} in the process we moved 36 amendments which were intended to strengthen the bill . {sent} they were intended to take what we received from the community and turn it into reality . {sent} if they had been accepted by the government , then the four target groups would be satisfied today , as would the opposition party , the liberal party . {sent} then we would have no problem voting in favour of the legislation and dealing with something else . {sent} we would know that we had dealt with the subject in a comprehensive and , most important , fair way . {sent} but we have not . {sent} a number of the amendments were crucial to the whole direction and thrust of employment equity . {sent} one was to include a provision with respect to an enforcement agency since in the bill there is no such provision . {sent} it was judge abella who said that if we cannot enforce rights , then they are just as good as unavailable rights . {sent} those words capture the spirit of what is lacking in this bill . {sent} they crystalize the opposition that we have seen to this piece of legislation and the malaise which is written into every page of it . {sent} the governing party said : `` we have the human rights commission to deal with it somehow '' . {sent} however , at the moment the commission does not have the resources . {sent} at the moment , it deals on a reactive mode , on a one-to-one basis , not as an agency which has the ability to oversee this type of legislation on a national basis . {sent} in this way we would have been convinced that some mechanism would be put in place to oversee the legislation . {sent} however , the amendment in this respect was not accepted . {sent} individual people in the four target groups and members of my party are asking why . {sent} if one believes that the human rights commission is the answer , then let us be frank and put a provision with respect to it in the legislation . {sent} another of our amendments suggested that the bill apply to all federal government departments which are presently exempted from the bill . {sent} if we have a federal government which says : `` this is our vision . {sent} this is what we want the private sector and the crown corporations to do '' , then what is wrong with not pursuing that and having the force of those measures obligate the federal government to act accordingly ? {sent} after all , we have to show leadership and we can only do that by example . {sent} another amendment we suggested based on representations we received at committee stage was to apply the bill to all businesses under federal jurisdiction with 25 or more employees . {sent} the present bill applies to businesses with 100 or more employees . {sent} that very regulation does away with most of the companies doing business with the government since a great number of them -- the majority i am told -- have less than 100 employees . {sent} therefore , we suggested that the threshold be placed at 25 . {sent} even the americans , whom we sometimes hit over the head when we talk about human rights , have contract compliance legislation which ensures that businesses doing business with the government follow its criteria . {sent} its criterion is for only 50 employees , and we are stuck at 100 . {sent} mr. speaker , i notice that you are motioning to me that i have but one minute left in which to wrap up . {sent} there were other amendments i wanted to go over , but i will not have the time to do that . {sent} so what is the choice ? {sent} what are we trying to suggest at third reading ? {sent} to put it very simply , as an eleventh hour pitch , it is to reconsider the inaction of this legislation and to consider the inequities in it . {sent} it is ironic that we should be pushing employment equity while at the same time we know that the legislation has tremendous shortcomings . {sent} this message does not come from members of the new democratic party or from members of the liberal party . {sent} it comes from canadians who are saying that the bill will not deliver equity . {sent} it is only window-dressing . {sent} i hope the government sees the light . {sent} mr. david orlikow ( winnipeg north ) : mr. speaker , it should be obvious to any member of parliament , and certainly to anyone who represents an urban constituency , that there still exists a great deal of discrimination against members of minority groups in employment . {sent} by minority groups i include the handicapped , native people , women , and members of racial minority groups , particularly those who come from visible minorities , that is , non-whites . {sent} governments , both federal and provincial , recognize that such prejudice and discrimination have existed for many years . {sent} so governments have , over the years , enacted fair employment and fair accommodation practices legislation . {sent} this legislation has somewhat lessened the discrimination in employment felt by members of these groups . {sent} however , a great deal of discrimination still exists . {sent} the former liberal government appointed judge abella to look into the matter . {sent} she conducted an investigation and made a report to which all of us should have paid some attention . {sent} i have in front of me part of a statement made by the present prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) in august of 1984 . {sent} he said : {sent} our party will ensure that companies providing services to the federal government hire increasing numbers of women to perform such services . {sent} let me put on the record the last sentence . {sent} i hope the parliamentary secretary is listening carefully because this is the crux of our fundamental disagreement with the government and the bill . {sent} the prime minister , then leader of the official opposition , concluded the paragraph which i just read by saying the following : {sent} numerical goals are one of several goals required : training and retraining are others . {sent} that was a promise made by the prime minister when he was leader of the official opposition at a time when we were heading into an election which he hoped his party would win so that he could become the prime minister . {sent} his party did win the election . {sent} he is the prime minister . {sent} what has happened to the commitment he made ? {sent} if there is one thing that is conspicuously missing from this bill , it is the promise made by the prime minister that the legislation his government would bring forward would include numerical goals . {sent} the experience of other jurisdictions , including the united states , is that without numerical goals , the objective of employment equity will not be reached . {sent} without numerical goals and targets which are monitored by the government , employers , both public and private , simply will not do what we want them to do . {sent} it is not surprising that this bill has been criticized and rejected by all the interested groups . {sent} let me put on the record a few of the assessments they have made of this bill . {sent} beryl potter of the coalition on employment equity for persons with disabilities had this to say about the bill : {sent} -- it 's not even worth the paper it 's written on ... i 've never been so disillusioned in my life as i am with prime minister mulroney . {sent} i was a supporter of him . {sent} i worked for him in his campaign and i am totally , totally disillusioned . {sent} the inuit tapirisat of canada which represents the inuit people of canada had this to say : {sent} bill c-62 is of limited value . {sent} suzanne boivin of the national association of women and the law said : {sent} nothing will change . {sent} unfortunately , it is simply wishful thinking . {sent} since this bill was first tabled almost a year ago , the new democratic party has taken the position that it is rife with flaws . {sent} to reiterate , we stated that it failed to embrace five principles which we promoted at every opportunity . {sent} first , there is an absence of real enforcement and adequate penalties under a mandatory equity scheme . {sent} second , there is no reference made to equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} third , contract compliance is not included . {sent} fourth , there is no obligation to negotiate equity where there is a bargaining unit . {sent} fifth , the coverage of the bill is inadequate . {sent} it does not include federal departments . {sent} i challenge government members and cabinet ministers to look at government departments , department by department , including those which were targeted for affirmative action by the former liberal government . {sent} they will see how little we have accomplished . {sent} they will see how few women work in areas other than clerical . {sent} i would urge hon. members to look particularly at the department of indian affairs and northern development to see how woefully neglectful we have been . {sent} they will see how few members of visible minorities work for the federal government at any level in any city . {sent} if they had the courage to look at what has taken place up until now , they would see how ludicrous it is to bring in a bill without any requirement for action . {sent} the bill is now at third reading stage , and this gives me an opportunity to review the flaws in the bill which centre around the absence of these requirements . {sent} in our view and in the view of the spokespeople for the target groups , this bill will not move us much closer to employment equity . {sent} the bill does have a lofty purpose . {sent} no witness found fault with the bill 's intention which , according to clause 2 , is the following : {sent} that is a noble goal . {sent} unfortunately , having stated the principle and outlined the goal , the bill then goes on to do everything possible to see that that goal is not achieved . {sent} this bill must be viewed as a bill for voluntary equity with mandatory reporting of workforce data . {sent} it is that and no more . {sent} there are three clauses in the bill which make certain demands on the employers that are intended to move them toward equity in the workplace . {sent} however , only clause 5 is subject to a maximum penalty of $ 50,000 on summary conviction . {sent} we attempted to increase this penalty to $ 500,000 because many of the firms covered by bill c-62 are very large . {sent} i am thinking in particular of the major banks , the cnr , the cpr , air canada and cp air . {sent} for many of them , a potential $ 50,000 fine would simply be part of the cost of doing business . {sent} that occurred for many years with the anti-combines legislation . {sent} on the very few occasions when a company was charged , prosecuted and found guilty , it paid a relatively small fine . {sent} it was like a licence giving these companies the right to continue to break the law , and this is the same thing . {sent} clause 6 requires the employer to gather data annually . {sent} critics have indicated that the required data is a bare minimum . {sent} as was pointed out , an employer could report year after year , yet the data could show no significant change for target groups in the workplace . {sent} there is no penalty for no progress . {sent} if there is no penalty for no progress , an employer could report that every year . {sent} in that event he would be obeying the law and following the instructions contained in the law . {sent} he could simply report that he has continued the practice but had not moved toward employment equity . {sent} what happens then ? {sent} nothing , because there is no penalty for not moving toward employment equity . {sent} however , i emphasize that the human rights commission does not enforce the employment equity bill . {sent} the commission will be enforcing the provisions of the canadian human rights act as they may apply to the workplace based upon data contained in the annual reports . {sent} what if the data is wrong ? {sent} well , it would be too bad . {sent} let us look at the type of data required in the reports . {sent} first , there would be the industrial sector locale , the number of employees , and the number in the target group . {sent} second , there would be a description of the occupational groups in the workplace and the number of target groups in each occupation . {sent} third , there would be the salary ranges and the number of target group persons in each salary range . {sent} fourth , there would be the number of employees hired , promoted and terminated , and the number of target group persons who fit into each circumstance . {sent} action plans were not in the original bill . {sent} indeed , the minister claimed before the committee that an action plan for producing equity was inherent in a company . {sent} ultimately the government responded by presenting the committee with an amendment forcing companies to prepare action plans which contained goals and timetables . {sent} however , these action plans will be strictly confidential . {sent} as various hon. members have said , the plans can remain locked up in firms' personnel offices , shielded from all prying eyes . {sent} they charged that the cnr was certainly not prepared to hire women in non-traditional jobs such as those in the maintenance shops in montreal , moncton , winnipeg or wherever . {sent} i am speaking from memory when i say that the canadian human rights commission found that their claim was valid . {sent} if the action plan is kept secret , how will employees or prospective employees who want to work for the company know what is happening ? {sent} i was pleasantly surprised some weeks ago when i visited the branch of the bank with which i deal in winnipeg to see a black person working as a teller , the only one i have seen . {sent} if there are any , they are certainly very few in number . {sent} there is no penalty for failing to develop an action plan , even a poor and inadequate one . {sent} the ndp has attempted to have penalty provisions included in clause 7 , but it has been to no avail . {sent} the suggestion was rejected by the government . {sent} we have also moved motions to cause employers to file their action plans with the canadian human rights commission and to post them in the workplace . {sent} they were not accepted . {sent} we are not suggesting that there should be canadian human rights commission approval of action plans . {sent} we are simply saying that it would be useful , in trying to meet the objectives of the bill , if companies were required to make the plans public . {sent} i note that my time is coming to an end , but i should like to compare the bill with the legislation in the united states . {sent} the americans began to put legislation into effect years ago . {sent} the legislation in its final form was brought in during the administration of president johnson . {sent} the plan requires employers to set targets and goals , and to have target dates for the hiring of people from various minority groups . {sent} the legislation has made tremendous difference and has led to tremendous improvement in the employment of people from minority groups in the united states . {sent} that country now has the most ideological president which it has had in 50 years . {sent} some of his advisers have indicated that they want business to be free and that they do not need that kind of legislation , those numbers or goals . {sent} it is interesting and significant that u.s. secretary of labour bill brock has carried on a campaign within the u.s. administration to retain those numbers and goals , that piece of legislation . {sent} he is being supported publicly by the national association of manufacturers , the same kind of organization which in canada is the main opponent of doing that here . {sent} why is that organization opposing it ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i have given the hon. member an extra couple of minutes to wind up . {sent} i will now ask for questions and comments from the house , and i am sure the hon. member will be able to carry on with some of his remarks . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i know the hon. member has had a good deal of experience with the american legislation because he worked for the canadian labour congress on the matter . {sent} from my observation of the american legislation , it has been quite successful for visible minorities and , in particular , black hispanics in areas like the american post office and so on . {sent} as the member pointed out the other day , when you visit an american post office in chicago , los angeles or new york , an overwhelming number of employees are black or hispanics . {sent} it seems to me from my meetings in washington that with women , especially at higher levels , the program has not been as successful . {sent} i may be mistaken . {sent} women may not have had the same success as these groups have . {sent} i would appreciate the hon. member 's further comment . {sent} mr. orlikow : mr. speaker , i have no actual figures , but the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) is correct . {sent} i do not think that women have been as successful as have the black and hispanic organizations in attaining the goals which all these minority groups have set for themselves . {sent} i suppose the reason for that is simple . {sent} the people in the groups with the political clout get the most . {sent} in any area you look , you will see the americans are far ahead of canadians . {sent} if the government tells us what we are required to do , we will do it . {sent} if the numbers are not there and the goals are not there , if the target dates are not there , no matter what we do , we will be accused by some people that we have not done enough '' . {sent} if they did that , i am sure they would come back and be prepared to agree to amending the bill along the lines i have suggested . {sent} mr. nystrom : mr. speaker , i have a comment and a question . {sent} the hon. member for winnipeg north ( mr. orlikow ) was mentioning the american program of mandatory affirmative action , employment equity . {sent} if i remember correctly , during the second world war or thereabouts the american program was not mandatory . {sent} it was a voluntary program and the americans found out that it did not work . {sent} they decided to change it in the 1960s . {sent} i am not sure of all the reasons they did so , but i know the member for winnipeg north is very well read and versed in this area . {sent} perhaps he can elaborate on why this change was made . {sent} i also understand there are some members of the american cabinet who are talking about ending the affirmative action program in the united states , some of the more reactionary members of mr. reagan 's own cabinet . {sent} how widespread is that mood and why are they trying to do this if there is a feeling in the united states that this is a good program ? {sent} perhaps the member could shed some light on those questions . {sent} mr. orlikow : mr. speaker , as i have already indicated , the secretary of labour in the united states , bill brock , has made very clear his support for the existing law and the existing system in the united states . {sent} the reasons are obvious . {sent} it works . {sent} let me make one thing clear . {sent} when we talk about employment equity and affirmative action , we are not saying to employers that we want them to hire unqualified members of minority groups for the job . {sent} that would be wrong and it would be stupid . {sent} we are saying that we want employers to hire qualified members of the minority groups . {sent} let me put on the record a few paragraphs from a letter which joseph rauh , a famous civil rights advocate in the united states , wrote to congressman james scheuer , himself a supporter of affirmative action and civil rights . {sent} there are , of course , differences about how laws can be interpreted and how they will work . {sent} mr. rauh was talking about whether medical colleges should be required to accept black applicants . {sent} he says , and it is a very good illustration : {sent} but in the light of 300 years of discrimination against blacks , is it too much to ask that some preference be given to blacks among qualified candidates for admission ? {sent} i stress `` qualified candidates '' . {sent} then in another letter he says : {sent} the problem is not a qualified white against an unqualified black -- {sent} what we are talking about is applications of qualified members of minority groups , that they must be given some assistance , a step up . {sent} that is what we are talking about in employment equity . {sent} that is what the government refuses to address . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions and comments are now terminated . {sent} debate . {sent} the official opposition is saying that in clause 3 the government of canada should include departments of the government of canada and crown corporations of the government of canada . {sent} then clauses 5 to 7 talk about an employer who has to file a report , a report on what , mr. speaker ? {sent} a report not only on the occupational groups , but also on the salary ranges of employees . {sent} why are salary ranges of employees there ? {sent} suppose for a moment that the salary ranges of employees of the federal government had to be reported . {sent} what happens ? {sent} a copy is therefore sent to the canadian human rights commission . {sent} obviously the salary ranges would be submitted to determine whether there is discrimination within that particular group of employees . {sent} suppose there was a group of people hired in canada who did the same job but received different wages in every town and city throughout the country . {sent} suppose they were working for the same employer in the same job classification and performing the same work , but all received different salaries . {sent} i can list several occupations in canada which earn different salaries from the same employer . {sent} according to this bill , the employer has to report the salaries he pays . {sent} the official opposition is saying that the government of canada and crown corporations should be included in that reporting . {sent} suppose that the wage paid in edmonton was below that paid in calgary . {sent} suppose the wage paid in saskatchewan was lower still , but the wage paid in manitoba was higher . {sent} we are doing a lot of supposing , mr. speaker , but the punch line is going to come very shortly . {sent} mr. turner ( ottawa -- carleton ) : we suppose . {sent} mr. baker : suppose , mr. speaker , that the salary paid by the same employer in the yukon and northwest territories was substantially higher for the same job in the same classification . {sent} suppose that the wage paid by the same employer for the same job classification and absolutely the same work was $ 2 higher an hour in halifax and moncton than in newfoundland . {sent} suppose , again , that three separate wage rates were paid in british columbia and that six different wage rates were paid in ontario . {sent} the financial administration act lists dozens and dozens of crown corporations . {sent} if the minister of employment and immigration ( miss macdonald ) were to appoint a commission , it would be excluded as well because it is defined under the financial administration act as a corporation . {sent} someone looking at this impartially would ask why a person in newfoundland is paid $ 2 less per hour for doing the same job as a fellow in the next province is doing . {sent} that only covers 16,800 federal employees . {sent} i will give you another example , which is even worse . {sent} in another branch of the federal government the one hundredth and second line of longitude separates a high salary from a low salary . {sent} picture two icebreakers tied up at victoria island in cambridge bay as there will be next month . {sent} one icebreaker is from british columbia and the other is from newfoundland , quebec , or one of the atlantic provinces . {sent} both ships are tied up at longitude 105o . {sent} one ship 's crew is getting $ 200 more per month than is the other ship 's crew for doing the same job in the same job classification for the same employer . {sent} mr. orlikow : those are all men . {sent} mr. baker : the hon. gentleman says that these are all men , but that is not exactly true , because some members of the ships' crews are women . {sent} however , he has a point that most of them are men . {sent} we get into a problem when we talk about equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} the law says that there must be equal pay for work of equal value , but there is no law in canada with regard to equal pay for equal work . {sent} i do not know how the canadian human rights commission or the courts could not interpret equal pay for work of equal value to mean equal pay for equal work , but that is the interpretation . {sent} i cannot find anything that says `` equal pay for equal work '' , but i can find `` equal pay for work of equal value '' . {sent} let me conclude my point by explaining what the problem is and how it evolved . {sent} we must be honest when we consider this in the historical context . {sent} this began with a five cent an hour difference , to which the percentages were added . {sent} i suppose the unions and the present government had no choice but to maintain some difference in their negotiations . {sent} the human rights commission has responded to the point i am making by saying that this involves a negotiated settlement . {sent} while there is nothing in black and white that requires equal pay for equal work , it is written in black and white that there should be equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} i cannot imagine accepting the fact that you have equal pay for work of equal value but there is not equal pay for equal work . {sent} let us look at the occupations on the list . {sent} there is a $ 3 difference in precision working . {sent} there is a difference of at least $ 4 an hour in vehicle and heavy equipment maintenance . {sent} there is a difference of at least $ 4 in electrical installing and maintenance . {sent} there is a difference of over $ 2 an hour for different groups in machine driving operating . {sent} there is a difference of at least $ 3 an hour with respect to the manipulating subgroup working for the same employer and in the same job classification , depending on where one works in canada . {sent} there is a $ 4 an hour difference for the woodworking subgroup , depending on where one is working . {sent} with respect to the pipe fitting subgroup , there is a $ 2 an hour difference . {sent} in kingston , an area which the minister of employment and immigration represents , it is substantially less than the wage settlements for the same group in toronto . {sent} i realize that the government of canada and the unions have a problem in negotiating a change to the system . {sent} we cannot make a distinction between people because of where they live or where they happen to travel during their work . {sent} the government attempts to appear lily-white with respect to the question of employment equity and equal pay for equal work . {sent} that is simply not the case . {sent} the treasury board would certainly need much more money from the government in order to bring the lowest paid workers to the level of the highest paid workers . {sent} today , members of parliament are receiving letters from their constituents who are pointing out that they are making less money than someone performing the same job in the next constituency . {sent} what should a member of parliament do ? {sent} first , we phone the human rights commission , which states that it does not have jurisdiction in this area because it only deals with equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} the union says that while the problem is serious , it cannot negotiate for enough money to bring every one up to the same standard . {sent} we are told by treasury board that this is an historical settlement which was negotiated with the union . {sent} there is nothing in the charter or the employment equity bill dealing with this situation . {sent} newfoundland is the lowest on the scale in every negotiated salary as far as zone rates of pay are concerned . {sent} under their negotiated contract , newfoundland workers are paid $ 2 , $ 3 and sometimes $ 4 an hour less for performing the same job for the federal government . {sent} the government of canada says that it cannot cure the problem because of the charter of rights , the bill of rights or anything else . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret to interrupt the hon. member but his time has expired . {sent} we still have a question and comment period . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , the hon. member has made some valid points with respect to employment equity as it affects workers from different regions of canada . {sent} as he knows , this bill asks that employers carry out employment equity only for those in designated groups . {sent} those designated groups are women , visible minorities , native people and the disabled . {sent} it does not say anything about other groups or individuals who might be discriminated against on the basis of national or ethnic origin , religion , age or the region from which they come . {sent} that is nine different bases for outlawing discrimination . {sent} this bill on employment equity deals with only four groups . {sent} the other act he referred to is the canadian human rights act . {sent} the canadian human rights act is even broader than the charter of rights . {sent} here we have a law that provides for employment equity for only four groups . {sent} the abella commission recommended that we legislate in that area , but that has not happened . {sent} why does he think that there is this difference between some statutes in not allowing discrimination and this bill , which only deals with four groups ? {sent} could he give us the reasons that he believes are the basis of that sort of discrimination between statutes ? {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} the hon. member for vancouver east ( mrs. mitchell ) earlier today proposed to move a subamendment to the amendment now before the house . {sent} after hearing argument on the procedural acceptability of the subamendment i reserved my decision . {sent} i am now ready to rule , and it is with regret that i must inform the hon. member that i cannot put her subamendment to the house . {sent} i listened carefully to the arguments , which point to the extent to which clause 4 is related to the clauses included in the amendment presently before the house . {sent} however , the chair must be guided by the practices of the house . {sent} on december 15 , 1971 , the hon. russell honey , then the deputy speaker stated : {sent} the difficulty is that when an hon. member proposes a sub-amendment he is under the constraint that he must not enlarge on , or differ in substance from , the amendment he is purporting to further amend . {sent} there are further references to this effect in beauchesne 's fifth edition in citation 438 . {sent} thus , it is with respect that i have to refuse to allow the subamendment of the hon. member for vancouver east ( ms. mitchell ) . {sent} it may necessitate , of course , carrying the debate over for another day , but that being the case i can understand the difficulty that you are faced with . {sent} we may have to do just that in order to have the amendment put . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i will check the procedureal acceptability of out what the hon. member has just said , and in the meantime we will carry on with the debate . {sent} that is probably the problem right there , that this is really the only thing that the present government has done or has any plans for doing during its one term in office . {sent} the reason it is suspect is that , first and foremost , as has been pointed out , a corporation that is a department as defined in the financial admnistration act is not included under the bill . {sent} that was the subject of a speech which he gave in the house the first day that the bill was introduced , and the government took that advice . {sent} you are telling the employers that they have to do something very hazy , and you are saying that the minister may provide you with some direction . {sent} `` you shall do this '' , and the employer does not know what he has to do , and the minister is saying `` well , i may give you some guidelines . '' {sent} the reason i want to ask the question is that he knows , as i do , that we tried to increase the fine to $ 500,000 to make it half a million bucks -- something really meaningful . {sent} fifty thousand dollars to some employers , which he knows very well , will not make a damn bit of difference . {sent} if i am caught , i will pay the $ 50,000 because it is cheaper to pay $ 50,000 than to put half a million dollars into repairing the building , making it accessible for egress and ingress . {sent} what does the hon. member think about that ? {sent} mr. baker : in clause 7 under discussion , it is an employer who fails to comply with clause 6 . {sent} if you look at clause 6 and then you go back to clause 4 , most employers will not know what they are being asked to do . {sent} however , i do not fault the drafters of the legislation . {sent} we have some very impressive drafters in this country , an expert group of people . {sent} the problem is the material you give to a draftsman ; that is what determines the accuracy of the legislation . {sent} we should not blame these errors on the drafters of the legislation . {sent} they are very expert people . {sent} it is the government of canada that does not know what it is doing . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. member for yorkton-melville ( mr. nystrom ) has a very short question or comment ? {sent} mr. nystrom : the member has talked very eloquently about employment equity . {sent} all i want to know is why the liberal party did not introduce the concept of employment equity when it forward the government ? {sent} the bill before the house is totally deficient . {sent} it should have been the logical conclusion to what was set before and done by the previous government . {sent} the hon. member knows that the liberal party has stood by people as far as employment equity is concerned . {sent} it is this government which has not fulfilled its mandate . {sent} adjournment debate {sent} proceedings on adjournment motion {sent} a motion to adjourn the house under standing order 66 deemed to have been moved . {sent} agriculture -- funding of coloured dairy cattle research . {sent} ( b ) approval of product {sent} it was in relation to whether holstein cattle were black and white or red and white . {sent} i asked why the minister was trying to put these dreamstreet people , the rich investors from wall street , on easy street with $ 10 million of canadian taxpayers' money . {sent} the minister then completely welched on the matter and said that he had not approved it , that it was approved by the minister of national revenue ( mr. mackay ) . {sent} he was obviously trying to put the responsibility on holstein canada , but it seems to me that it is not its responsibility . {sent} it is the responsibility of the government to decide whether the project goes forward and $ 10 million of the taxpayers' money is used for essentially a laundering process to recycle canadian taxpayers' money to the united states . {sent} farmers are very upset and concerned about this . {sent} they say that if the government has this kind of money to do unnecessary research , why does it not have adequate research funds to do worth-while projects for agriculture . {sent} we ask ourselves why the minister put pressure on the department of national revenue to approve this project . {sent} we heard it was turned down three or four times . {sent} or was it the prime minister 's office which put the pressure on the department of national revenue ? {sent} who is dreamstreet ? {sent} there have been a lot of reports . {sent} we received one report from a farmer who said he had heard that in 1984 , it was a company which was some $ 11 million in debt in the united states and it had to reorganize . {sent} there is a story in the march edition of the holstein-friesian world of a sale at hyperian farms in new york state where some 37 lots of cattle were sold for $ 9 million . {sent} one animal actually sold for $ 1.5 million . {sent} however , when it was checked a month later , it was found no money had ever changed hands . {sent} no pedigrees were ever exchanged . {sent} what kind of a scam was going on there as reported in the holstein-fresian world ? {sent} what kind of scam is going on in canada today ? {sent} in the end , i think we will find out that this is the largest hoax which has even been perpetrated on the dairy industry in canada , and on the holstein-friesian association . {sent} it seems that the minister is sitting on his hands and making no decisions . {sent} he is doing nothing to stop this scam . {sent} he should either stop it immediately or , if he does not have the courage , then he should set up a commission of inquiry to look into the matter . {sent} the whole idea of it really smells . {sent} canadian dairymen are upset . {sent} they want the government to take action . {sent} they do not want the minister of agriculture sitting on his hands and letting this thing continue on in the way it has been going . {sent} i wish to set the record straight on two particular points . {sent} first , in looking for the perpetrator of the hoax , i can tell the hon. member that he is now practising law in montreal . {sent} he is the former minister of finance . {sent} his name is marc lalonde . {sent} i say this because the scientific tax credit was brought in under the previous liberal government , of which the hon. member was a member . {sent} so if we are looking for the perpetrator , we now know where to find him . {sent} there is no question about it . {sent} the facts are very clear . {sent} neither the minister nor any official in the department of agriculture recommended or approved any such project . {sent} a tax credit for this project was approved under a revenue canada program introduced by the previous liberal government , namely , the scientific research tax credit . {sent} that was a boondoggle of magnificent proportions perpetrated by the former government . {sent} the dreamstreet project met the old program criteria . {sent} since laws cannot be passed retroactively , revenue canada ruled that it qualified for tax benefits . {sent} mr. foster : it was approved in december of 1985 and you know it . {sent} mr. lewis : the hon. member for algoma ( mr. foster ) says that the research project is `` phoney '' . {sent} we are used to hearing better language from the hon. member . {sent} i suppose in his embarrassment with respect to how this program was initiated , he has had to resort to that type of language . {sent} due to the efforts of the present minister of agriculture , the company has indicated a willingness to be flexible with its plans . {sent} as a matter of fact , officials from agriculture canada attended a meeting on april 17 involving the company , representatives of the holstein association and the university of guelph . {sent} progress is being made along these lines to bring this research in line with the over-all research of agriculture canada . {sent} i point out that it is especially important to my riding of simcoe north . {sent} almost half of dairy research expenditures have been paid for by the government of canada . {sent} this is why we are looking to expand this research by involving the private sector to a greater extent . {sent} we are presently co-operating with the holstein association , semex canada and the canadian association of animal breeders , which are all heavily involved in this very important dairy research . {sent} penitentiaries -- projected construction of prison in manicouagan constituency {sent} hon. bob kaplan ( york centre ) : mr. speaker , a few days ago i raised the question of whether or not it was proper for the government of canada to be building a penitentiary in the prime minister 's riding . {sent} that is the subject i wish to raise this evening . {sent} i have actually raised this subject in the house of commons twice , and i wish to refer to both times . {sent} i raised it once with the minister of justice ( mr. crosbie ) and once with the solicitor general ( mr. beatty ) . {sent} i also asked the solicitor general what was the justification for building that penitentiary at the same time as the committee was being asked in good faith to look at a variety of options , including that of not proceeding with the penitentiary . {sent} they are saying they are not able to provide adequate street supervision for offenders . {sent} the solicitor general wants us to take him as an enlightened correctional authority . {sent} he recognizes that street supervision in a proper case is a lot beter than incarceration . {sent} street supervision is more rehabilitative . {sent} all these problems are dealt with much more effectively under street supervision than behind bars . {sent} of course , there is a residue of offenders from whom street supervision does not provide the public with enough protection who should be behind bars . {sent} there is no doubt , however , that the solicitor general wants canadians to believe that he thinks effective street supervision is a good alternative . {sent} not only is it more effective from the point of view of rehabilitation , but it is a lot cheaper . {sent} we would have expected a rational government to make sure that the parole system works well and that it is the alternative that is being presented to the canadian people . {sent} however , we are seeing perhaps the most expensive prison in the history of canada being built right in the middle of the prime minister 's riding . {sent} i do not think that is a defensible position , particularly when the government is inviting us to take seriously the things the nielsen task force has recommended to us and , in particular , the option of not building the penitentiary . {sent} i do not think this is the correct decision . {sent} i would like to add that i had a chance to discuss this matter further with the solicitor general at the justice and solicitor general committee . {sent} in that committee , he said that this penitentiary was one that i had in effect approved while i was solicitor general . {sent} he proved that by showing that i had in the past endorsed an extension to drummond penitentiary . {sent} he asked me how i felt about that . {sent} i would like to confess that i thought that that extension to drummond had actually been built . {sent} i thought that we were talking about a further addition of cells in the quebec region . {sent} now i have to react and ask the government to react to that challenge . {sent} i do so just by looking at the bottom line . {sent} however one looks at it , the penitentiary in the riding of the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) has to be looked at as nothing but politics and something very unnecessary . {sent} mr. speaker , you will be interested in the prediction which i am about to make in my remaining minute . {sent} if more prison cells have to be built , they should be built in western canada . {sent} people in every part of the country like to believe that there are no criminals from their part of the country . {sent} however , i am afraid that the only way these cells in quebec will be properly used will be by moving inmates from western canada for incarceration in the province of quebec . {sent} there will be language problems and the unfairness of inmates not being close to their families or the communities to which they will return upon release . {sent} it is a mistake and it is a misallocation of resources . {sent} i put it to the minister 's mouthpiece tonight , whoever it will be , to reverse this terrible decision and to countermand the decision made by the prime minister . {sent} we just cannot accept the hon. member 's challenge . {sent} further , i encourage him to request his colleagues in the opposition and in the senate to pass bill c-67 and bill c-68 , and a lot of his wishes will be accomplished . {sent} he would certainly be working in a positive manner if he worked in that direction . {sent} as the hon. member will recall , the construction of a protective custody facility in quebec was originally announced on his behalf , as the then solicitor general , in april , 1984 . {sent} the need for protective custody accommodation still exists , but the location for the new institution has been changed in the interests of socio-economic development , to alleviate severely distressed conditions in the port cartier area . {sent} the institution at port cartier will meet the accommodation needs for protective custody inmates in the province of quebec . {sent} it is projected that 230 cells will be required by 1993-94 . {sent} it will replace the outdated protective facilities at laval institution . {sent} this institution , formerly called st. vincent de paul , was opened in 1873 and has been identified for phase-out since the late 1970s . {sent} because of its age and structure , it cannot be renovated or operated economically for a higher security population at current standards . {sent} historically speaking , penitentiaries have traditionally been built to serve geographical areas or the needs of newly created provinces . {sent} springhill institution in springhill , nova scotia , is an example in point , as is the area in the miramichi region of new brunswick where the atlantic institution is nearing completion . {sent} although the location of the new institution may be considered as relatively remote from montreal , port cartier has the necessary infrastructure in place to support the needs of a penitentiary , and program delivery to inmates will not suffer because of its location . {sent} however , because of its location , the correctional service of canada will endeavour to facilitate the maintenance of family ties where possible . {sent} the new institution will have significant and continuing beneficial economic impact on the community . {sent} of an estimated capital cost of $ 68.2 million , a substantial portion will be spent on local construction materials , goods and services . {sent} it is projected that 700 job years will be created over the 1985-88 period . {sent} regulations -- request for clarification of task force created to study certain aspects {sent} as you know , in the summer of 1984 our government proposed three very important themes to the canadian people . {sent} we also spoke of liberalizing trade relations with our main trading partner , the united states of america . {sent} mr. speaker , we also said that our government would respect and get closer to the private sector , the only valid partner for a progressive government . {sent} we wanted to rid it of the bureaucratic burden of obsolete regulations and red tape . {sent} as early as september 18 , 1984 , only two weeks after canadians approved our election program , we announced that a departmental task force had been created to examine government programs . {sent} on november 16 , 1984 , a group of responsible canadians , under the chairmanship of mr. philip aspinal , formed the private sector advisory group . {sent} this group , which itself was to be sub-divided into nineteen sub-task forces , examined over 1,000 government programs representing nearly $ 100 billion in expenditures . {sent} on march 11 , 1986 , the deputy prime minister of canada ( mr. nielsen ) tabled the nielsen report in the house , a report drafted by the task force responsible for examining programs . {sent} mr. speaker , we know that a sound and fair assessment of current programs and legislation by the various parliamentary committees will make it possible to recommend , to legislators and government officials , ways of achieving substantial savings . {sent} hon. members will have to realize that pressure groups and municipal and provincial governments can no longer afford to think and regulate within a local , mini-regional or regional framework . {sent} today , legislators must expand their thinking to fit the national and often even the global context . {sent} the chair on which we sit in our home may come from sweden , while we are watching the news on an american network and our tv is imported from north korea . {sent} hon. members will have to assess the various legal irritants between provinces , construction codes , parity committees and employment permits that apply only province-wide . {sent} we will have to review our labour laws , transport legislation , and the regulations of various departments such as fisheries , agriculture and environment , including areas such as food . {sent} when talking about the province of quebec we will have to consider the fact those taxpayers have to file two returns , one with quebec city and one with ottawa . {sent} we will have to take a second look at duplication in legislation and policies concerning the development of our natural resources and matters related to northern regions . {sent} we will have to put an end to overlapping foreign programs and duplication in regional industry assistance . {sent} mr. speaker , we will have to urge all canadian men and women to realize that we can no longer live as if we were not part of the whole world . {sent} manufacturers had to face this fact , federal and provincial legislators must now follow suit , and unions will no longer be able to ignore this timely , universal and urgent truth . {sent} on february 13 , the deputy prime minister ( mr. nielsen ) rose in the house and announced the first ever federal regulatory policy . {sent} our regulatory policy was developed from the work done in this area by the task force on program review . {sent} in its report , the study team provided a three-part diagnosis of canada 's regulatory situation . {sent} it pointed out that the cumulative effect of regulation at the three levels of government constitutes an enormous impediment to economic growth , initiatives , enterprise , and personal freedom in canada . {sent} it went on to say that elected representatives do not have adequate control over regulation and the regulatory system . {sent} finally , it concluded this indictment by indicating that the public has too little access to and involvement in the development and review of regulation . {sent} our strategy is designed to respond to the problems identified by the task force . {sent} the government house leader has assumed the additional role of minister responsible for regulatory affairs . {sent} in march of this year he provided details of 43 separate regulatory program initiatives currently being undertaken by the government . {sent} work is already underway on these reforms and will lead to far-ranging practical improvements in a broad cross-section of federal regulatory programs . {sent} at the same time , the minister announced a new citizens code of regulatory fairness . {sent} this code will provide a yardstick against which the administrative performance of the government can be measured . {sent} the member for levis has expressed particular interest in the area of federal-provincial co-operation . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the motion to adjourn the house is now deemed to have been adopted . {sent} accordingly this house stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11 a.m. , pursuant to standing order 3(1) . {sent} the house adjourned at 6.29 p.m. {sent} tabling of documents {sent} house of commons {sent} tuesday , april 22 , 1986 {sent} the house met at 11 a.m. {sent} routine proceedings {sent} petitions {sent} government response {sent} petitions {sent} restoration of twice daily mail delivery -- florence , n.s. {sent} assessment of cn maintenance facilities -- moncton shops {sent} mr. dennis h. cochrane ( moncton ) : mr. speaker , once again i have the honour and privilege to present a petition which has been duly certified by the clerk of petitions . {sent} it is signed by residents of southeastern new brunswick and expresses their concern with regard to the canadian national shops in moncton and the effect that the current assessment being conducted by cn may have upon that facility . {sent} there is a group in town today which is also in support of this petition . {sent} i am pleased to present the petition to the house at this time . {sent} motions {sent} mr. kaplan : mr. speaker , i have had some discussion with members opposite and one of the reports which follows the one on which i would like to move concurrence today is urgent . {sent} therefore , i am prepared , if your honour would so allow , to have the motion precede my own . {sent} mr. speaker : the hon. member is seeking the unanimous consent of the house to stand his motion for the moment . {sent} the chair accepts that . {sent} the hon. member for ontario ( mr. fennell ) . {sent} striking committee {sent} concurrence in thirtieth report of standing committee {sent} mr. scott fennell ( ontario ) : mr. speaker , i move that the thirtieth report of the striking committee tabled in the house on april 18 be concurred in . {sent} mr. speaker : the house has heard the terms of the motion . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} motion agreed to . {sent} regulations and other statutory instruments {sent} concurrence in sixth report of standing committee {sent} as joint chairman of the standing joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments , i am pleased to ask for the concurrence of this report of the committee . {sent} in her reply the minister stated that the report of the joint committee was : {sent} -- based on misleading and inaccurate analyses of the situation . {sent} finally , the minister questioned the correctness of the committee 's conclusion that some homeowners were unfairly treated . {sent} as to the last point , i believe that the house will be the judge of the correctness of the report . {sent} concerning the other two matters , i point out to the minister that the only announcement made on november 8 was that the canadian home insulation program would gradually be phased out . {sent} this was a budgetary decision of the government with which the report does not take issue . {sent} i have in hand the press release issued by the minister announcing that starting on january 1 , 1985 , until termination : {sent} the chip contribution to eligible costs will be reduced from 60 per cent to 33-1/3 per cent . {sent} the press release , which is the one mentioned in our sixth report , goes on to state : {sent} as for the report being based on inaccurate or misleading information , i think this is an assertion upon which the minister should reflect . {sent} it is a rather serious matter to charge a committee of the house with misleading members of parliament . {sent} in any event , the factual information contained in the committee 's report comes from the minister 's own officials and press releases . {sent} if our committee has been misled by these , it is up to the minister to explain . {sent} i would now like to turn to the sixth report of the joint committee . {sent} i want to emphasize that this is a unanimous report of a committee on which members of all parties and both houses are represented . {sent} it is not a partisan report . {sent} i would like to explain the factual situations in terms of the report . {sent} until january 18 , 1985 , applicants under the canadian home insulation program were entitled to a payment representing 60 per cent of the cost of insulating a family housing unit or residential building . {sent} as part of the phasing out of the program , which was a policy of the new government , it was decided to reduce the level of contributions from 60 per cent to 33-1/3 per cent of insulating costs . {sent} lest the minister misunderstand the purpose of our report , permit me to emphasize that these policy decisions are not objected to as such by the committee . {sent} the committee recognizes that these are decisions which are for the government and its ministers to make . {sent} however , the decisions that were announced on november 16 , 1984 , were not reflected in the regulations governing the payment of chip grants until some three months later ; that is , on january 17 , 1985 . {sent} it is to these amendments that the joint committee objects . {sent} the joint committee had before it two regulatory amendments which were made on january 17 , 1985 , but which required chip applicants to have registered their purchase commitments 17 days before the date of the regulations as a legal condition of obtaining the higher contribution . {sent} in effect , these amendments imposed a retroactive requirement on home owners . {sent} members of the house will agree that retroactive regulations are undesirable . {sent} not only are they undesirable and offensive but by clear precedent they are also illegal unless they are sanctioned clearly by parliament . {sent} the relevant legislation did not give any authority to make retroactive regulations . {sent} it is an established principle of law that subordinate laws made by the executive may not have a retroactive application unless this is expressly authorized by the statutes pursuant to which they are made . {sent} the department took the position in defence of what it had done that most applicants were aware before december 31 that they should register a commitment . {sent} the only place where such a requirement was expressed , however , was in the minister 's press release . {sent} a press release is not a legal instrument . {sent} as the committee said in its report : {sent} citizens have a right to rely exclusively on the laws adopted by parliament and its delegates and should not be made to govern their conduct and affairs in accordance with press releases and other public announcements . {sent} this , mr. speaker , is what the report of the joint committee is all about . {sent} when our committee sought an explanation from the deputy minister of energy , mines and resources , it was assured in a letter received from the deputy minister the following : {sent} the 83,950 signed commitments which were registered with chip by december 31st , 1984 , are evidence that the minister 's announcement was effectively communicated to the public . {sent} i want to reiterate that citizens cannot , in a society founded on the rule of law , be expected to obey announcements that have no legal force whatsoever . {sent} in committee , when we asked the representative of the department how many applicants had missed the deadline of december 31 , 1984 , we were informed of the following : {sent} unfortunately , statistics were not kept on the number of registrations that were rejected . {sent} this is indeed unfortunate . {sent} you will agree , mr. speaker , that an injustice done to a few is just as serious as an injustice done to the many . {sent} these applicants were never even given the chance to preserve their entitlement to the higher rate of contribution . {sent} by the time the regulations were amended , it was too late . {sent} this problem is entirely the result of the executive 's failure to amend the regulations in good time . {sent} if the minister 's officials had time to draft a series of press releases as early as november , 1984 , surely they had enough time to draft the appropriate amendments to the regulations . {sent} these amendments could then have been adopted before december 31 so as to give the applicants adequate notice of the new requirements . {sent} i know that i did in my office and i know that other members of the committee did . {sent} i suggest that all members of parliament did . {sent} we are talking about something that is very concrete and real to our constituents . {sent} this is not the first occasion on which the committee has dealt with a situation of this kind . {sent} i express the hope that this is a principle every parliamentarian , of whichever party , can agree to and support . {sent} it is a principle which is afforded by the government in its regulatory reform policy . {sent} it is a principle that must be maintained by all of us as legislators and representatives of the people . {sent} regulations generally impact on the daily lives of canadians to a far greater degree than the statutes pursuant to which they are made . {sent} for the making of laws , we must account to the people . {sent} when we delegate our legislative authority to the executive , we have a duty to hold it accountable for its exercise of authority . {sent} the principles outlined in the sixth report of the joint committee deserve the support of all members of the house . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. ian waddell ( vancouver -- kingsway ) : mr. speaker , i rise on behalf of the new democratic party to take part in this debate . {sent} i consider it to be a non-partisan debate , as far as that is possible in the house , because the issues are non-partisan issues . {sent} i congratulate the hon. member for york cente ( mr. kaplan ) . {sent} he is a former minister , a senior member of the house , and a co-chairman of the committee . {sent} i am a new member of the standing joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments . {sent} i will try to explain in a more simple way to canadians how the committee works . {sent} the committee considers all regulations and statutory instruments . {sent} parliament could not include all that in one act of parliament . {sent} it would be a huge act of parliament , and we could not anticipate what would happen in different situations . {sent} therefore , parliament passes a general law making provisions for wharfs , for moneys , for ways in which they will be controlled , for personnel and so on . {sent} following that , parliament says the authority , the bureaucracy , the governor in council , or cabinet can pass a number of regulations dealing with wharfs . {sent} cabinet has to sign all the regulations and so on . {sent} since there are thousands and thousands of them , i suspect that they cannot look at every one of them , even as good intentioned as cabinet ministers may be . {sent} sometimes unjust regulations go by . {sent} sometimes people are charged fees when there is no authority for it . {sent} sometimes people cannot tie up their boats when there is no authority for it . {sent} perhaps i am over-simplifying the matter , but that is the way it works . {sent} perhaps the department has issued a regulation which does not really fit in with the power in the act . {sent} the committee has many standards when it looks at orders in council , but i will not go through all of them . {sent} there are two lawyers who work with the committee and go through all the statutory regulations . {sent} when the committee writes under the joint signature of a conservative senator , a liberal mp , and a conservative mp , we start seeing changes in the department . {sent} this is all `` behind the scenes '' work in parliament , but it is very important work because it ensures that the rule of law and citizens' rights are respected . {sent} i think everyone in the house would agree with that . {sent} in my experience with the committee , we have dealt with transportation fees and rates and agricultural matters . {sent} the committee has been involved in a host of things . {sent} as the hon. member for york centre and as the committee indicated , citizens have the right to rely exclusively upon the laws adopted by the parliament of canada . {sent} the particular issue before the house now is a very interesting one . {sent} the government brought in the program known as chip . {sent} many canadians know about it . {sent} i believe the government has spent over $ 700 million under this program since 1977 . {sent} it was a very successful program . {sent} the price of oil was rising and it was deemed appropriate that canadians , who are the biggest energy users per capita in the world , should start conserving . {sent} the government indicated that it would help those persons who insulated their homes , because canadian houses were notoriously poorly insulated , by giving them a grant of up to 60 per cent . {sent} in my own case , i think it was before 1979 that i took advantage of the program . {sent} i fixed up my house , as did many other canadians . {sent} it was a good deal . {sent} mr. friesen : where is your home ? {sent} mr. waddell : in vancouver . {sent} it was a good deal . {sent} i think i got $ 500 from the government , and i paid the rest , to have my house insulated so that i would use less energy . {sent} the government decided -- and some of us in the house disagreed -- to phase out some conservation programs such as chip and the off-oil program . {sent} the off-oil program gave grants to people to go from oil , which is a dramatically depleting resource in canada , to natural gas of which canada has a lot . {sent} that program and chip were to be ended ; they were to be phased out . {sent} the government indicated that after december 31 , 1984 , it would reduce the 60 per cent grant to 33-1/3 per cent . {sent} that is what the government intended to do , but it turned around and did it by press release . {sent} i know a few lawyers who spend their evenings reading the canada gazette , but few canadians do so . {sent} perhaps you do , mr. speaker , because you are always on the ball . {sent} nevertheless , that is the rule of law in canada . {sent} orders in council must be gazetted before they come into force . {sent} the government only wanted applicants to be reimbursed for 60 per cent of their insulation costs until december 31 , 1984 , and then for 33-1/3 per cent thereafter . {sent} however , the regulation was not gazetted until january 18 , 1985 . {sent} in my view those applicants were legally entitled to the 60 per cent . {sent} i think the case was set out beyond any shadow of a doubt by the hon. member who last spoke . {sent} we will hear from the government and the committee . {sent} the department says there was no record kept of those rejected registrations , and we do not know how many were wrongly dealt with . {sent} i want to give the government notice that i will be filing an application under the freedom of information act to try to find out whether the department has been altogether truthful with us . {sent} quite frankly , i do not believe the department . {sent} i think there are records , and i think we should a look into the matter . {sent} the committee says on page 2 of its report that : {sent} `` unfortunately , statistics were not kept on the number of registrations that were rejected . '' {sent} that is what the department told the committee . {sent} i think we have to look at that further and i will ask that question of the government spokesperson today in the debate . {sent} there is a general presumption in law that legislation is not retroactive , except in budgetary cases . {sent} in the budget you can announce what you are going to do and then you enact the legislation . {sent} it is legal for parliament to enact legislation that is retroactive , although there is some problem in criminal matters . {sent} generally , we do not like enacting retroactive law in criminal matters because someone could do something which did not seem illegal when he or she did it . {sent} the government can clearly enact retroactive legislation , but that is not what happened in this case . {sent} people should not be misled by the government if it tries to say otherwise and i hope the government will not try to say that . {sent} it is clear from common law that regulations may not be made retroactively unless the enabling legislation specifically permits this . {sent} in other words , if we pass the law and say the regulations under the law can be made retroactive , that is fine . {sent} i do not think in this case there was any legislation passed that enabled regulations to be passed retroactively . {sent} if there was , i challenge the government to show us . {sent} therefore , the regulations are ultra vires because there was no authority for them to be made retroactively . {sent} after regulations are gazetted they are legal . {sent} but in the period between december 31 to january 18 there was no law on the books to allow the government to send back those applications . {sent} the government has to act according to the law . {sent} it should have taken the applications for the full 60 per cent . {sent} in order for the government to have proceeded legally , the regulation would have had to be gazetted on decemebr 31 , 1984 . {sent} and i feel that these regulations were neither legal nor fair in covering the period from december 31 , 1984 to january 18 , 1985 . {sent} despite the fact that the press release was issued , the public is deemed aware of a regulation only after the time it is published in the canada gazette . {sent} as i said , mr. speaker , we do not stay up all night reading the gazette but this is the legal jurisprudence of canada , the law of canada . {sent} it is not fair not to give the public proper notice that their rights are being affected . {sent} december 31 was not early enough . {sent} there should have been earlier notice , that is , publication in the canada gazette . {sent} that should have been done one month in advance . {sent} there are two other points . {sent} one deals with conservation . {sent} conservation is a very important area for canadians . {sent} while oil prices are going down , let us not forget that we should continue with conservation . {sent} that is why this particular statute is very important . {sent} second , the jurisdiction , the scope of this committee , has been expanded . {sent} the standing joint committee on regulations and statutory instruments will now be able to bring one regulation to this parliament under the new rules and this parliament will have the power to throw out the regulation . {sent} that is an important power . {sent} it is indicative of a non-partisan attitude in all parts of the house from the conservative benches right through . {sent} let us look at what is happening with regulations outside of the statutes that are running people 's lives . {sent} i expressed the opinion that i would like to see even the scope of the statutory and regulations committee expanded to include government agencies as well as the cabinet . {sent} direct cabinet regulations , the ones that cabinet just approve and do not make are not subject to the scrutiny of our committee . {sent} there are a lot of orders and regulations not covered . {sent} it is not ironic that the department of energy was caught in this matter . {sent} the department has become a touch arrogant . {sent} it might be because it has had so much legislation in the past six years with the national energy program , then its dismantling . {sent} the department has been used to doing things very quickly . {sent} in this case it did something illegally and was caught by this committee . {sent} this could happen to any government department . {sent} they must be more responsible in passing regulations . {sent} they will be scrutinized more by parliament . {sent} the feeling throughout the house is that we want accountability and control over regulations which are affecting people 's lives . {sent} i think that is healthy . {sent} it should announce that in the future it will act differently . {sent} it should also consider the matter of those people who applied between december 31 , 1984 , and january 18 , 1985 . {sent} by law those people should have received the full grant of 60 per cent rather than the half grant of 33 per cent . {sent} this is a very important case and i ask the government to accept it in the spirit in which the committee brings it to its attention . {sent} mr. kaplan : mr. speaker , in my own remarks i expressed the hope that the house would support the committee rather than the minister in the up-coming vote on this matter . {sent} what would my colleague 's view be if the house failed to support the committee ? {sent} how would that affect his own attitude and that of the ndp toward the future work of the committee ? {sent} mr. waddell : of course , mr. speaker , we will continue to work on the committee . {sent} in this parliament we are trying to make members independent to a degree . {sent} this is not the congressional system , but it is a new beginning in parliament . {sent} i consider ged baldwin , a former conservative member , to be one of the initiators of this trend which was taken up by many other conservative members . {sent} we , in the house , are striving for freedom of information and freedom for mps to have some say rather than always being bound by government discipline . {sent} this is the report of an all-party committee and what we are bringing to the attention of the government is fairly unanswerable in law . {sent} this is an occasion upon which the members of the committee need the support of the house . {sent} there are conservative members of the committee and this is a unanimous report . {sent} i do not say that this is a non-partisan issue , but it does involve the freedom of individual mps . {sent} let us continue to move forward rather than taking a step backward with this particular vote . {sent} i ask conservative mps to vote with the committee to accept the report . {sent} if they do not do that , it will put the conservative members who are on the committee in a very difficult position . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i would like to make a few comments and ask the hon. member a question . {sent} mr. speaker , last friday i asked the minister during question period what she intended to do about this unanimous report of the committee . {sent} i asked the question mainly because of my concern that the minister would make the same mistake twice . {sent} it is my view -- {sent} she was referring to the committee 's report . {sent} -- that it has been based on misleading and inaccurate analyses of the situation . {sent} mr. speaker , it is insulting and even offensive when a committee is told by a minister of the crown that it has made a misleading and inaccurate analysis of the situation . {sent} in the first session of the last parliament , which lasted three years , we adopted 173 statutes , but there were 4,000 instruments made pursuant to those statutory powers . {sent} what assurance do we have as parliamentarians that this or other ministers will not take this high-handed approach to regulations and operate by press release ? {sent} is the central point of this debate this morning not to ensure that this minister or others do not repeat the action taken with regard to the insulation program ? {sent} mr. waddell : yes , i agree with the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) . {sent} i think the hon. member for york centre ( mr. kaplan ) has a strong case . {sent} however , i would rather wait and hear what the parliamentary secretary has to say , since he is supposed to speak on behalf of the minister and the government . {sent} as i tried to say in my speech , mr. speaker , this is just one example of many cases . {sent} the ability for deterrence which this committee has is that it is not known which department it will choose . {sent} if we can get support from the house on this matter , in the future departments will be very careful to ensure that these regulations are carried out under the law . {sent} in summary , these regulations are very important in our lives , perhaps even more so than the statutes . {sent} second , they are hard to scrutinize . {sent} third , the committee has been expanded in its mandate and jurisdiction to scrutinize these instruments . {sent} fourth , this was accomplished through the support of the house which has built up over many years and was started , quite frankly , by many conservatives . {sent} although i have not yet heard the government 's reply , i think this is a case in which the government could accept some chastisement and indicate that its conduct will change . {sent} finally , this is a very good test for the new parliamentary procedures which we have embarked upon . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the period for questions and comments has now expired . {sent} resuming debate . {sent} the parliamentary secretary to the minister of energy , mines and resources ( mr. mcdermid ) . {sent} mr. john mcdermid ( parliamentary secretary to minister of energy , mines and resources ) : mr. speaker , it is a pleasure for me to participate in this debate today . {sent} i appreciate the high level of debate , for the most part , which we have heard from the opposition side . {sent} there are two questions to be debated . {sent} the first is that of regulations coming in after an intended deadline for a program . {sent} we accept the recommendation that regulations should be made and enacted before a deadline is set . {sent} i think that is a very worthy recommendation . {sent} governments are going to make mistakes , and i think they can learn from their mistakes . {sent} that is very important . {sent} my friend , the member for york centre ( mr. kaplan ) has pointed out that this was done in a nonpartisan manner . {sent} it also suggests that if the government had acted in accordance with proper procedures , that would not have happened . {sent} my hon. friend from vancouver -- kingsway ( mr. waddell ) made it very clear that the public do not sit down and read the gazette , which can be voluminous and very complicated at times . {sent} the minister mentioned the other day that the facts were not well presented to the committee . {sent} i would like to lay them out for the house today . {sent} we feel the government acted fairly and generously . {sent} it phased out chip in an orderly manner . {sent} it announced its intentions clearly and provided canadians with enough time to adjust to the lower level of funding . {sent} moreover , the phase-out process provided canadians with additional benefits which would not have been available if another approach had been used . {sent} before i explain why the phase-out process was entirely appropriate , let me review the facts . {sent} they are easily misinterpreted and i believe that is why the committee was critical of the government . {sent} these are the facts . {sent} on november 8 , 1984 , the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) announced that chip would be phased out by march 31 , 1986 . {sent} that announcement was one aspect of a broader government program to restrain expenditures and reduce the crippling debt left us and all canadians by the previous government . {sent} it was clear that some flexibility was needed to avoid applicants missing out on the 60 per cent grants through no fault of their own . {sent} therefore , the minister announced on november 16 that applicants had until december 31 to register their commitment to have insulation work done . {sent} if they completed the work by march 31 , 1985 , they would receive the 60 per cent funding . {sent} this generous provision ensured that applicants were not denied grants at the 60 per cent level because of a shortage of material and contractors . {sent} on january 17 , 1985 -- and these dates are very important -- the order in council was passed enacting the change to the regulations . {sent} i think everyone is in agreement so far . {sent} if the government had simply announced the grant reduction to take effect on january 1 , 1985 with no special provisions , the regulations would have been approved earlier . {sent} however , the government was more concerned with being fair to canadians than writing regulations quickly . {sent} it took care that those regulations were drafted properly to the benefit of chip applicants . {sent} it is important to understand that at no time was it ever intended that the reduction in the level of grants would be retroactive . {sent} yet what of those home owners who , through no fault of their own , were not able to get work done in time to receive the 60 per cent grants ? {sent} the government would have been acting in accordance with proper procedure if it had taken this approach but canadians would have been the losers . {sent} this provision actually gave home owners a longer period in which to qualify for the higher grants than they would have been allowed under other , less generous phase-out approaches . {sent} this was an extraordinary measure in the history of chip . {sent} home owners had never been entitled to guarantees of payment at a certain level for a certain length of time . {sent} under previous regulations a home owner received a grant in accordance with the regulation at the time his or her application was received . {sent} the regulations dealing with the grant levels , as everyone in this house knows , changed many times during the life of the program . {sent} it has been said that some unspecified number of home owners were denied grants at the 60 per cent level because of the phase-out process . {sent} the facts show the exact opposite to be true . {sent} so the comment that my friend from vancouver -- kingsway made regarding all the applications which came in after december 31 , 1984 , for 60 per cent were thrown in the garbage , is just untrue . {sent} it is just untrue . {sent} the only people who did not receive a 60 per cent grant up to january 17 , 1985 , were those who did not qualify for any level of grant . {sent} they just did not qualify and would not have qualified no matter what the level of grant was . {sent} they were the only ones . {sent} approximately 84,000 home owners took advantage of the flexibility built into the phase-out process to apply for grants at the 60 per cent level up until december 31 , 1984 . {sent} an additional 25,000 applied for grants at this level between january 1 and january 17 , an extra 25,000 in that period of time , up until the regulations were passed . {sent} some 96 per cent of all applicants qualified for grants and received the full 60 per cent funding . {sent} four per cent just did not qualify . {sent} such announcements are made routinely by ministers . {sent} they were made routinely by ministers of the previous government and they are made routinely by ministers of this government . {sent} they are part of a commitment to inform canadians of the government 's plans as soon as it is reasonably possile . {sent} what the minister did was clear and proper . {sent} she announced a policy intention to reduce the grant level . {sent} she did not act on it until then . {sent} that is not mentioned in the report handed down by the committee . {sent} the committee said they were not satisfied with the evidence and i hope that today , after they hear the evidence , they will in fact be satisfied . {sent} the figures show that the phase-out process was effective in allowing canadians to qualify for 60 per cent funding . {sent} clearly , canadians knew about the planned changes to the program and took advantage of the generous phase-out process to get the higher level of funding . {sent} if there are any canadians who did not know of the government 's intention to reduce the level of grants , it is not because proper procedures were not followed . {sent} the usual method of making these matters known ; statements , news releases , asking the insulation industry to inform clients , were used . {sent} i note that the committee pointed out in its report that the decision was widely publicized both by energy , mines and resources and the media . {sent} teleposts were sent to all listed contractors , industry associations and building supply stores . {sent} as well , the `` heatline office '' and chip regional offices informed all telephone callers of this announcement . {sent} when one looks at the history of chip , it is clear that the program has provided a generous level of funding throughout its history . {sent} since its inception in september , 1977 , it has provided 2.8 million applicants with $ 900 million in assistance . {sent} chip has made an important contribution to taking canada down the road to energy security . {sent} when our government took office , it was clear that the program had gone a long way to achieve its goals and that providing government funding indefinitely would be too costly . {sent} this was particularly true because of the deficit . {sent} we decided to end the program one year earlier than the previous government had intended . {sent} this did not indicate any flagging of our commitment to energy conservation in canada . {sent} it was a prudent decision . {sent} deficit reduction was one of the important reasons for phasing out chip but it was not the only reason . {sent} we recognized that conditions in the market-place had changed and that the government 's role had to change with them . {sent} chip , and its companion program , the canadian oil substitution program , provided a high level of funding for consumers for several years . {sent} more important , they helped to change the way canadians think about energy and its use . {sent} it became clear to us that it was time for the government to lessen its direct financial involvement . {sent} the point had been made with consumers that it is a good investment to use less energy and to use it more efficiently . {sent} reducing oil use remains an important long term goal of the government . {sent} despite declining oil prices , energy conservation is still a very good investment . {sent} we do not know when prices will rise again but we know that they will rise because oil supplies will eventually decline . {sent} we saw all too clearly in the 1970s how supply can be manipulated to suddenly and drastically increase prices . {sent} we cannot and should not continue to expect the public treasury to borrow funds to provide consumer grants . {sent} programs such as chip have started the energy conservation process going and they maintained it for a significant period of time . {sent} the government will now concentrate its efforts on ensuring that home owners are fully aware of the options available to them . {sent} we are continuing to help find solutions to technical problems , to refine and expand work standards , and to assist the industry to improve insulation techniques and marketing . {sent} the concern for energy conservation and the needs of canadian home owners was at the heart of our decision on how to phase out chip . {sent} our greatest concern was to be as fair to canadians as humanly possible . {sent} we proceeded carefully . {sent} we consulted with the industry and then acted in such a way that canadians were not denied an appropriate level of funding because of circumstances beyond their control . {sent} we acted fairly , we acted properly and we acted generously . {sent} we accept and understand that the regulations were brought in after the announced closing of the program . {sent} that is fair enough . {sent} mr. kaplan : mr. speaker , the parliamentary secretary has put forward some information that is new , at least as far as i am concerned . {sent} however , i want to react to it in terms of the mandate of the committee and then hear the hon. member 's comments . {sent} i must say , looking at the revelations that he has just made from the perspective of the committee 's mandate , i think he has made the situation worse . {sent} i want to point out two problems to him that arise from what he said . {sent} first , he told us that the government did not stick to its own press release . {sent} the press release advised consumers to get their applications in by december 31 . {sent} this was a great unfairness to people who took the government seriously when it put out its press release . {sent} how many people came in between december 31 and january 17 ? {sent} what information was given to members who were relying on the press release and advising their constituents who had missed the deadline ? {sent} how did the information get out that an application submitted during that critical two and one half week period would still be accepted ? {sent} that is the first problem which concerns me . {sent} the second problem concerns the contents of the regulation . {sent} this is a regulation that we have challenged and which i assume the government was defending . {sent} the regulation stated december 31 as the cut-off date but in fact it took effect on january 17 . {sent} if december 31 was not the cut-off date and the government was prepared to give grants for applications that were received between december 31 and january 17 , what authority does the government have to honour those applications ? {sent} it is certainly not the regulation because the regulation imposes a cut-off two and a half weeks earlier . {sent} i support the chip program and would have been happy if the government continued it . {sent} i am not talking about it from the point of view of policy , and i am pleased that others were able to receive the money . {sent} however , from the point of view of the mandate of the committee , i must ask the parliamentary secretary about the meaning of the regulation . {sent} what authority does the government believe it has for ignoring the terms of the regulation and validating applications that were received in that two and one half week period ? {sent} finally , it seems to me that the initial mistake that was made , for which the minister surely must be accountable , is that she gave her officials an assignment that they could not handle . {sent} the parliamentary secretary told us himself that there was no way that the regulations could be drafted on time , even though they knew they needed regulations . {sent} he has indicated that they needed them to validate what it was they wanted to do . {sent} they should have picked a realistic date for their officials in order that the law could have been obeyed . {sent} in this way the rule of law could have been complied with and we would not have had the necessity of making the report which is before us . {sent} i feel even more strongly than i did before that the government stands condemned by the terms of our report and by the way it behaved in trying to extricate itself from this very unsatisfactory situation . {sent} mr. mcdermid : mr. speaker , if the hon. member expects recipients of chip to survive on the salary of a parliamentary secretary , then it will be an awfully thin program . {sent} i can guarantee him that . {sent} mr. waddell : it will be a thin parliamentary secretary , too ! {sent} mr. mcdermid : that is right . {sent} i say to the hon. member that the committee cannot have it both ways ; it cannot suck and blow at the same time . {sent} it is saying that we cut people off on december 31 , that that was illegal and that we should not have done it . {sent} he then says that we did not honour them until the regulations were passed , and he asked for a number . {sent} there were some 25,000 . {sent} there were no special favours given . {sent} obviously , people who applied for chip grants after the deadline were expecting to receive a 33-1/3 per cent grant . {sent} there was no discrimination with respect to the matter whatsoever . {sent} it was done absolutely honestly , above board , and with the greatest of fairness and concern for all canadians who applied for chip grants . {sent} for the hon. member to try to make a silk purse out of a sow 's ear is very unfortunate . {sent} the government has accepted chastisement with respect to the fact that regulations were brought in at a date later than the announcement made by the minister . {sent} however , at the same time , we did not penalize canadians in any way , shape or form . {sent} they were well informed and properly advised . {sent} for the hon. member to say that they were not properly advised because it was not in the the canada gazette at the time is completely wrong . {sent} mr. waddell : mr. speaker , i have two short questions for the parliamentary secretary . {sent} would the hon. member not agree with me that there is a difference between what he considers as the government acting fairly , generously and properly and the government acting according to law ? {sent} will he admit that in fact it did not act according to law ? {sent} i will repeat my question . {sent} representatives of the department told the committee that when they received applications dated after december 31 , 1984 claiming the 60 per cent rebate , there were no statistics available with respect to that matter . {sent} why did they tell the committee that , if what the hon. member is saying is correct ? {sent} mr. mcdermid : mr. speaker , the question they were asked was with respect to how many were rejected on the grounds that a purchase commitment ought to have been registered before that date . {sent} the response was that , unfortunately , there is no record of those rejected on that basis . {sent} we do know how many came in and how many were approved . {sent} the question was : how many were rejected ? {sent} if he had been asked how many were approved he would have told them that it was 25,000 . {sent} what the member has virtually conceded is that the regulation was invalid and that steps considered appropriate were taken to compensate for its invalidity . {sent} if the regulation is invalid , then people who applied after january 17 should not be receiving 33-1/3 per cent but , rather , 60 per cent . {sent} i say this because the regulation cutting the applicants down from 60 per cent to 33-1/3 per cent is invalid . {sent} the government has admitted that . {sent} mr. mcdermid : mr. speaker , that is convoluted liberal thinking . {sent} mr. gauthier : because it is logical ? {sent} mr. mcdermid : those who applied after january 17 knew full well what they would be receiving . {sent} they knew for what they were applying . {sent} the regulation was in place . {sent} for the hon. member to make a suggestion such as the one he has made , with a silly grin on his face at the same time -- {sent} mr. kaplan : i don't have a silly grin on my face . {sent} i think it is marvellous . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} the time allotted for questions and comments has now terminated . {sent} mr. russell maclellan ( cape breton -- the sydneys ) : mr. speaker , i would like to say a few words about the report of the standing joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments . {sent} it is a very significant report which brings forward very important points . {sent} the second matter , and perhaps the most important , is with respect to the way the government is treating the legality of this whole situation . {sent} i appreciate that the government made a decision that it did not want to continue with chip . {sent} i do not agree with its decision but it is the right of the government to make such decisions . {sent} it initially made an announcement concerning this matter on november 8 , 1984 , when the minister of finance ( mr. wilson ) delivered his economic statement . {sent} this was followed up by a press release by the minister of energy , mines and resources ( miss carney ) on november 16 . {sent} these statements indicated that certain undertakings had to be obtained by applicants prior to december 31 , 1984 , and that anyone who could not apply prior to january 1 , 1985 would not be eligible for the 60 per cent . {sent} after that date they would be eligible for only 33-1/3 per cent . {sent} unfortunately , the regulations were not passed until january 17 , 1985 , making the action of the government illegal , as has been stated by the hon. member for york centre ( mr. kaplan ) . {sent} the government had no legal right to prohibit consumers who applied for chip prior to janaury 18 , 1985 from receiving the 60 per cent to which they were entitled . {sent} the parliamentary secretary has said that the government gave the 60 per cent to those who applied prior to january 18 . {sent} we do not know that . {sent} we do not know how many applied . {sent} the committee was told by a representative of the department of energy , mines and resources that , unfortunately , statistics were not kept with respect to the number of registrations which were rejected . {sent} thus we really do not know . {sent} yet the parliamentary secretary would have us believe that the 60 per cent was granted to those who applied prior to january 17 . {sent} a great many people had been told by the department that they were not eligible . {sent} had they put in their applications against the advice of the department they would have been eligible . {sent} it is highly unlikely that anyone would put in an application after having been told by the department that he would not be eligible . {sent} there was quite a problem there . {sent} the parliamentary secretary would have us believe that there was no time to put a regulation in place prior to january 17 . {sent} the government did not open parliament until november 5 or 6 , two or three days prior to the minister 's economic and fiscal statement . {sent} the government was elected on september 4 and the house did not sit until the week of november 5 , yet the regulation could not be put in place until january 17 . {sent} that is highly incredible . {sent} there is no reason the regulation could not have been prepared at the same time the government was drafting its economic and fiscal statement . {sent} that is irresponsible . {sent} the government is putting things into law retroactively . {sent} that will not sit well with the canadian people . {sent} that is not legal . {sent} it is not as though the government only did that on this occasion . {sent} the government is applying regulations retroactively . {sent} the parliamentary secretary indicated that the government is more concerned with the welfare of canadians than with passing regulations quickly , but that is just hogwash . {sent} the government cannot be concerned with the welfare of canadians if it is going to break the law to reduce the benefits that flow to canadians . {sent} this is a very important question . {sent} i would ask all hon. members to concur in the report of the committee . {sent} the report of the committee is on the side of law . {sent} the stance of the government is that it is trying to justify the breach of a law , but that is contrary to the laws of canada . {sent} i would ask all hon. members to vote with the committee and not with the government . {sent} first and foremost , this question is a point which all canadians must consider . {sent} if we are going to continue to pass regulations and apply them retroactively , canadians cannot possibly have any confidence in or respect for the laws of canada . {sent} it was stated that in the last parliament , 4,000 regulations were passed . {sent} regulations are out of control . {sent} they are passed but are never reviewed . {sent} they are costing canadians millions of dollars . {sent} regulations under one act contradict regulations under another act . {sent} federal regulations contradict provincial regulations . {sent} the whole thing is out of control . {sent} what is most out of control is the attitude of this government which is taking away the rights of canadians without passing the proper laws . {sent} the government is deciding arbitrarily that canadians are not going to have these benefits , not only without compassion but without the legal capacity to do so . {sent} mr. waddell : mr. speaker , i have a comment to make on this issue . {sent} i see that the parliamentary secretary is now here . {sent} perhaps he would reply to this . {sent} say there are two people who did not complete the program by january 17 but both made commitments to complete by the end of march . {sent} we should ask ourselves if they would both receive 60 per cent of the cost , and the answer is , not necessarily . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} is the hon. member asking the hon. member a question ? {sent} i wish he would direct the question to -- {sent} mr. waddell : i am sorry . {sent} i do wish to make a comment and i hope that the hon. member does return . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : please direct the question to the hon. member who just spoke . {sent} mr. waddell : here he is now . {sent} let me repeat the question . {sent} i wonder if the hon. member would agree that it is possible that they may not both have received 60 per cent of the costs . {sent} let me put it another way . {sent} suppose someone comes to the government on january 22 with a contract made on january 2 committing him to complete by the end of march . {sent} is it not possible that the deparment would tell that person that he did not register before december 31 and would therefore receive only 33-1/3 per cent of the costs ? {sent} this is surely where the government 's position is flawed . {sent} since it did not have the proper order in council , the government is trying to finesse the point of the so-called fairness of the procedure . {sent} is it not possible and indeed probable that one would receive 60 per cent of the costs and one would receive only 33-1/3 per cent of the costs ? {sent} mr. maclellan : mr. speaker , i would like to agree with the hon. member for vancouver -- kingsway ( mr. waddell ) . {sent} that certainly is possible . {sent} in fact , we do not really know what happened between january 1 and january 17 . {sent} we do not know how many people applied . {sent} we do not know what treatment they were given . {sent} we do not know how many applications were rejected as the department has indicated that it does not have that information , something which is rather surprising . {sent} no statement was made by the minister prior to december 31 , 1984 , indicating that the time would be extended . {sent} in fact , during the time between january 1 and january 17 , 1985 , the minister made no statement indicating that the time was to be extended . {sent} we do not know whether or not those in the department took it upon themselves to treat applications that came in between january 1 and january 17 in their own fashion without passing them along , because we do not have any records . {sent} mr. mcdermid : mr. speaker , i have a comment to make . {sent} i disagree with my hon. friend . {sent} i say yes , the two people would receive the same amount . {sent} i might say that anyone who signed a contract after january 1 was well informed all the way along as to what was happening with the program . {sent} mr. waddell : not by order in council , not by gazette and not by law . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i appreciate that hon. members are having a little question and comment period between themselves . {sent} if they would like to do that behind the curtains that would be fine , but questions at this point should be directed to the hon. member for cape breton -- the sydneys ( mr. maclellan ) . {sent} mr. mcdermid : mr. speaker , i thought i was doing pretty well in that i was being interrupted by my friend from vancouver . {sent} i am making a comment at this point ; i am not asking a question . {sent} as i was saying , the canadian public was very well informed . {sent} obviously they were well informed because of the huge number of applications which came into the department before december 31 . {sent} those who made application after december 31 knew full well that they were applying under the 33-1/3 per cent grant . {sent} however , because the regulations were not passed , the department honoured the 60 per cent grant for those people who applied in that time period . {sent} it was a very fair way to treat the canadian public , and that is the way it happened . {sent} mr. benno friesen ( surrey -- white rock -- north delta ) : mr. speaker , one of the benefits of having been here a while is that the speaker learns the name of one 's riding . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} i have no difficulty with `` surrey -- white rock -- north delta '' . {sent} i would hope , after the next election , that it would have one or two names like surrey -- white rock . {sent} mr. friesen : i would not want you , sir , to leave out one of the areas of my good constituency . {sent} another benefit of having been here a while is that one develops a memory for past events . {sent} i am now taking some pleasure in an ironic sense of justice , the wheels having turned full circle . {sent} we are not dealing with only the matter of chip . {sent} we are really dealing with the whole subject of delegated legislation and the procedures followed by the standing joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments . {sent} when i was sitting in the opposition , an order in council passed by the previous government consumed much of my attention and quite a bit of my energy . {sent} it was known as the emergency planning orders . {sent} the hon. member who tabled this report should not walk out because my remarks will be of interest to him . {sent} i see that i have peaked his attention , at least . {sent} mr. kaplan : yes. {sent} mr. friesen : the particular emergency planning order never enjoyed the benefit of news releases , as did this particular order in council . {sent} this one had at least two , three or four news releases which anticipated the new regulations that would be adopted later by the government . {sent} the emergency planning order did not enjoy any flare of publicity . {sent} it was just gazetted , and some very sharp canadian somewhere noticed it and gave some prominence to it . {sent} mr. robinson : it is still on the books today . {sent} mr. friesen : i hear the hon. member for burnaby ( mr. robinson ) . {sent} i think he has become sloppy in his attention to house business . {sent} he knows very well that the associate minister of national defence ( mr. andre ) is revamping that entire matter , including the war measures act . {sent} he should not get too anxious . {sent} now it so happens -- and this is where the justice comes in -- that the hon. member for york centre is a co-chairman of the committee which is examining delegated legislation , orders in council . {sent} i think it is perfect that the hon. member for york centre , who ran a little roughshod over some government procedures in that process , would now have to chair the committee which examines delegated legislation . {sent} when i sat on the parliamentary reform committee i had two main concerns . {sent} one of them was my concern for delegated legislation or orders in council which do not enjoy parliamentary scrutiny unless they are elevated to the point of attention by this particular committee . {sent} i was very concerned about the workability of the standing joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments . {sent} there is a sense in which i want to commend the committee for bringing forward this matter . {sent} at the same time , i am concerned about the fact that the committee did it . {sent} i really think that committee members have overblown the case here . {sent} they are taking a subject , which may even be of some legitimate concern , and are overblowing it to the point of making it look frivolous in the context of what they ought to be doing . {sent} let us assume there was a 17-day gap between january 1 and january 17 when the order in council might have been printed . {sent} he would have indicated that surely an economic statement deserved some attention and debate in parliament , and that orders in council should flow from that debate and be registered thereafter . {sent} he cannot have it both ways . {sent} on the one hand he cannot allow for full parliamentary debate and examination of that statement and for parliament to ventilate its concerns and , on the other hand , expect the regulations to be printed at the same time . {sent} in his opening statement -- and i think i am quoting the co-chairman accurately -- he said that it was an unusual use of the powers of government . {sent} previous speakers have pointed out that plenty of notice was given to the public . {sent} a news release was sent out on november 8 defining for the canadian public the terms under which the new programs would work . {sent} there was another one on november 9 in which the minister announced that the lower rate of contributions would be implemented effective january 1 , 1985 . {sent} i can tell the hon. member , from the responses i received from the industry , that it was well informed about the government 's procedures and intentions . {sent} there was another announcement on november 16 elaborating on the program . {sent} it is really overstating the case when the hon. member says that it was an unusual use of the powers of government . {sent} also , as a member of the parliamentary reform committee , i caution the members of this committee to use wisely these powers which are long overdue and which many of us wanted . {sent} again i say that this is somewhat a frivolous motion because they could have tabled this particular report under the provisions of standing order 44 . {sent} it would then have forced the government into a change of the regulations . {sent} the committee chose not to do that . {sent} it chose to critize the procedure , tabled a report and asked for a two-hour debate to talk about the report . {sent} but as a result , nothing happens . {sent} time and the effects of the program are already past . {sent} the public was properly informed . {sent} probably all of the applicants or intended applicants had a choice whether or not they wanted to take part in the program . {sent} i would caution the standing joint committee on regulations and other statutory instruments in respect of its use of the powers which are the committee 's which happily now allow the committee to bring about changes in government regulations in order to correct an injustice . {sent} this could not be done before the reform was accepted by the house . {sent} up until february any time this committee sat , all it could do was ventilate an issue but nothing happened . {sent} under the reform of the house of commons , the committee now tables a report under s. o. 44 , which i will read into the record : {sent} -- if the report is concurred in , would be an order of this house to the ministry to rescind one specified regulation or other statutory instrument , which the ministry has the authority to rescind . {sent} that puts muscle to a report , mr. speaker . {sent} what the committee has chosen to do is to table a report which has absolutely no muscle to it and has consumed two hours of debating time , time which could have been spent much more wisely on something else . {sent} mr. robinson : mr. speaker , i have a question for the hon. member with respect to his earlier remarks on pc-1305 , the emergency planning order . {sent} now that the hon. member for surrey -- white rock -- north delta ( mr. friesen ) is a government member , it seems that he is singing a different tune . {sent} how can the hon. member possibly justify the total inaction of his own government with respect to the emergency planning order ? {sent} why is he now saying that it is all right for his government to study the matter and to take another 15 months or two years to look into it in depth ? {sent} when the hon. member was in opposition he was suggesting that this was one of the greatest threats to civil liberties in the country . {sent} why , all of a sudden , is the hon. member saying now that the government needs more time to study ? {sent} how can he justify the reversal of his policy ? {sent} mr. friesen : mr. speaker , the hon. member for burnaby ( mr. robinson ) is a master of hyperbole . {sent} he talks about hypocrisy . {sent} as he sits in his social subsidized housing in vancouver , as reported on television last night , he ought to use the facilities of the taxpayers of canada who have given to him -- {sent} mr. mcdermid : at $ 54,000 a year he is in subsidized housing ? {sent} mr. waddell : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} i do not know what that has to do with the reply -- {sent} mr. mayer : what has the question got to do with the motion ? {sent} mr. gauthier : the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) is in social housing . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} the hon. member for vancouver-kingsway ( mr. waddell ) . {sent} mr. waddell : we are waiting for the answer . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} the hon. member for surrey-white rock-north delta ( mr. friesen ) was trying to complete an answer on regulations and statutory instruments . {sent} we are getting into some high level debate which has nothing to do with today 's debate . {sent} i will allow the hon. member for surrey-white rock-north delta to terminate whatever he was going to say so that we can get to further questions and comments . {sent} mr. friesen : mr. speaker , i was simply responding to part of the statement made by the hon. member for burnaby ( mr. robinson ) accusing the government of hypocrisy . {sent} mr. robinson : accusing the member . {sent} mr. robinson : what are you doing in government ? {sent} mr. friesen : we have no less commitment to doing away with that provision . {sent} the hon. member might want to scotch-tape policies together and cut and paste , but we are not satisfied with that . {sent} the hon. member can rest assured that the government will do that . {sent} i fail to understand the member 's point , mr. speaker . {sent} he , like us in this house , was advised on january 18 . {sent} i happen to have some dossiers here . {sent} let me read part of a letter dated january 17 . {sent} dear member of parliament : {sent} that officially gave us information on january 18 about what the government 's intentions were with regard to the implementation of the program . {sent} mr. mcdermid : nonsense . {sent} mr. gauthier : it is not nonsense . {sent} the letter is dated and it is signed by dennis orchard , director , home energy programs . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : order , please . {sent} this is a question and comment period and the questions and comments are to be directed to the hon. member who just finished speaking . {sent} the hon. member has been here a long time and realizes that . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i was just informing the member that i have a document dated january 17 , 1985 , indicating that the program would be terminated on december 31 , 1984 . {sent} how can the member say that it is frivolous for a committee of the house , which has to review regulations , to come before the house and report that there has been an irregularity ? {sent} that has nothing to do with a november 9 statement in which the government said it would phase it out . {sent} this has to do with an announcement made by the government through press releases . {sent} in other words , the government operates by press releases rather than order in council and regulations duly adopted by the government . {sent} i fail to understand what is so frivolous about that . {sent} i think it is a serious point . {sent} the point of the debate this morning was to ensure that the government did not repeat the procedure of passing regulations after the fact . {sent} what does the member think is frivolous about that ? {sent} what is so frivolous about asking a government to operate in a good and legal manner ? {sent} mr. friesen : there is nothing frivolous about trying to keep the government on its toes . {sent} that is the job of that committee and it ought to do it with vigour and it ought to report its findings to the house . {sent} however , i seriously question the need to debate , for two hours , a report on a program which is no longer in force . {sent} there is no way to turn the calendar back . {sent} we ought not to have government by press release . {sent} however , this was not ; it was simply forewarning . {sent} the government did file the necessary orders in council . {sent} if members were really serious about this report they would have had concurrence in the committee to file this report , including standing order 44 , which would have called upon the government to rescind . {sent} the very fact that they did not implement the provisions which have muscle indicates that they were not very serious about the report in that sense . {sent} i think it is unfortunate that we have spent two hours debating something which cannot be changed . {sent} mr. waddell : did the hon. member receive any applications for this grant between january 1 and january 17 in his office in surrey ? {sent} if he did , what did he tell the people ? {sent} were they eligible for 60 per cent or 33 per cent ? {sent} mr. friesen : i thank the member for thinking that i have an encyclopedic and photographic memory , but i cannot answer that question . {sent} mr. len gustafson ( parliamentary secretary to prime minister ) : mr. speaker , it has been suggested that in the phasing out of the canadian home insulation program some householders were treated unfairly . {sent} nothing can be further from the truth . {sent} the fact is that the minister and her officials made special provisions in the phasing out process to ensure complete fairness for homeowners . {sent} the plain and simple reality is that the actions taken by the hon. minister were well within her mandate and 84,000 additional households qualified for the chip grants because of the minister 's concern for fairness . {sent} the concern of the minister for the additional householders during this transition period should be significantly noted . {sent} the phasing out of the canadian home insulation program was undertaken with fairness and market responsiveness as top priorities after consultation with the insulation industry . {sent} the facts are these . {sent} on november 9 , 1984 , the minister announced that the lower rate of contribution would be implemented effective january 1 , 1985 . {sent} this registration process was available until december 31 , 1984 , and the work had to be completed by march 31 , 1985 . {sent} this ability to register was a special provision not contained in the standard rules of the program and was evidence of the government 's willingness to be fair and flexible . {sent} on january 17 , 1985 , the order in council was passed enacting the change to the regulations . {sent} until january 17 , 1985 , all applications received , accompanied by proof of work done , were eligible for the 60 per cent level of contribution . {sent} the minister 's objective was to devise an orderly , fair , and flexible phase-out of the chip program . {sent} mr. waddell : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} not only is the hon. member reading his speech , which is against the rules , but he is reading the same speech which the parliamentary secretary gave . {sent} that is not debate . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : that is out of order . {sent} mr. gauthier : it 's the same speech . {sent} he reads better than the parliamentary secretary . {sent} mr. gustafson : mr. speaker , the situation in the house is that the opposition is wasting time after the minister acted in the best interests of the people of the country . {sent} if you will allow me , i will continue . {sent} mr. robinson : mr. speaker , i rise on a point of order . {sent} the hon. member refers to the opposition wasting time . {sent} the conservative members of the committee unanimously supported this report and i hope the parliamentary secretary will correct that reference . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : that is not a point of order . {sent} mr. gauthier : no , but it is a good point to keep in mind . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i hope hon. members will allow the hon. parliamentary secretary to continue . {sent} mr. gauthier : if he wants to call it one o'clock , we will agree . {sent} mr. gustafson : mr. speaker , the policies and the minister 's methods for implementing the phase-out process are both fair and just . {sent} those are the facts . {sent} the minister and her officials were sensitive to the realities in the market-place during the phasing-out period . {sent} the fact is that the industry would not have been able to meet the increased demand for insulation work . {sent} therefore , a special provision was made . {sent} the industry benefited and so did the consumers of canada . {sent} i would like to point out a misunderstanding in the second paragraph of section 3 of the committee 's report . {sent} this information was provided in response to a completely different question concerning the number of applicants who had attempted to register after december 31 , 1984 . {sent} i see that my time is up , mr. speaker , and i would just like to say that the minister acted in the best interests of the consumers of canada and we are proud of that . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the hon. parliamentary secretary 's time has expired . {sent} it being one o'clock , i do now leave the chair until two o'clock this day . {sent} at 1 p.m. the house took recess . {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} after recess {sent} the house resumed at 2 p.m. {sent} statements pursuant to s.o. 21 {sent} income tax {sent} tax returns -- information needed by taxpayers {sent} mr. alfonso gagliano ( saint-léonard -- anjou ) : mr. speaker , today , the minister of national revenue ( mr. mackay ) has announced measures that will help employees responsible for answering inquiries . {sent} the minister indicated that taxpayers must be able to count on revenue canada providing accurate information to help them complete their income tax returns . {sent} the minister announced a number of measures that will help his employees achieve this goal . {sent} measures that will be implemented next year ! {sent} who is going to help taxpayers who have yet to file their returns , now they only have eight days left , mr. speaker ? {sent} who is going to pay the interest on the mistakes canadians are going to make in filing their returns because revenue canada doesn't know the answers and gives the wrong information ? {sent} not a word about that from the minister , mr. speaker . {sent} i trust he will come back with another press release to deal with this particular point . {sent} health {sent} pelvic inflammatory disease {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , it is well known that pelvic inflammatory disease is a silent epidemic which has swept across canada . {sent} in 1982 over 140,000 canadian women were treated for this disease and the number increases each year . {sent} despite these terrifying figures , there exists a deep silence regarding this disease and its consequences of infertility and disability . {sent} this has resulted in no major research on the disease being conducted in canada . {sent} pensions {sent} federal penitentiary employees -- early retirement after twenty-five years of service {sent} the house will understand that this is a matter of particular concern to me , since i have five federal penitentiaries in my riding as well as the only training centre for francophone prison guards in canada . {sent} mr. speaker , early retirement is of vital importance to people who have been exposed to high-stress working conditions for so many years . {sent} status of women {sent} improvements achieved through government measures {sent} mr. geoff wilson ( swift current -- maple creek ) : mr. speaker , economic and social equality for women is a priority of the government . {sent} between september , 1984 , and march , 1986 , some 293,000 jobs for women were created . {sent} unemployment among women has fallen by 1.9 per cent since september , 1984 . {sent} contrast that with the last term of our predecessors wherein it rose by 3.4 per cent . {sent} most promising of all , this government will continue to build on these accomplishments and not rest until complete equality for women is a reality in our country . {sent} national revenue {sent} reported closing of company for failure to pay taxes {sent} ms. sheila copps ( hamilton east ) : mr. speaker , the government talks about consultation concerning revenue canada . {sent} we heard the former critic of the minister being very hard on the government . {sent} is this a government that cares ? {sent} is this a minister of national revenue ( mr. mackay ) who listens not only to the opposition but to his own members ? {sent} i urge the minister -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} energy {sent} assistance urged for oil industry {sent} mr. paul gagnon ( calgary north ) : mr. speaker , the collapse of oil prices has created a crisis in calgary . {sent} for example , the unemployment insurance claims centres are working 68 hours a week to process the avalanche of claims . {sent} if one compares the past seven weeks with last year 's figures , the claims are up 57.5 per cent -- yes , mr. speaker , up 57.5 per cent -- to a total of 16,400 claims . {sent} these are 16,400 stories of despair , of broken dreams , of hardship and being forced to move . {sent} the government must act , and act now to aid this industry . {sent} immigration {sent} russian army defectors in afghanistan -- sponsorship offer {sent} the action group is prepared to support one of the six , egon kovalchuk , and to take full responsibility for his well-being in canada . {sent} it is actively looking for other ethno-cultural groups to sponsor the other five . {sent} the group believes that a major injustice has been done in raising the expectations of these defectors that they would be able to come to canada . {sent} unfortunately , the government 's mishandling of their case has left them marooned in rebel held territory . {sent} this sincere offer made by concerned canadians demonstrates public support for the rescue of these six men . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} employment {sent} small businesses -- youth -- government position {sent} mr. michel champagne ( champlain ) : mr. speaker , i would like to take a concrete example and prove to the house that money invested by our government in the riding of champlain is benefitting the entire population . {sent} two hundred and twenty million dollars were given to the cle company in champlain to be used as loans for small businesses . {sent} this amount has generated investments that are vital to the economy of our region . {sent} in fact , over $ 1 million has been generated by our businesses and financial institutions to provide permanent and durable jobs for our people . {sent} administration of justice {sent} assistance required by victims of crime {sent} mr. dave nickerson ( western arctic ) : mr. speaker , often within our criminal justice system it is the victim of crime who is neglected . {sent} it is the criminal who is accorded the rights and privileges of the law and the victim who is forgotten . {sent} both the minister of justice ( mr. crosbie ) and the solicitor general ( mr. beatty ) are aware of this and are to be congratulated on their recent initiatives . {sent} similar congratulations are due to those police forces which have established units to aid victims of crime . {sent} let us hope that in the future victims will have much easier access to the assistance and advice which ought to be their due , and that their interests will be no longer cast aside . {sent} canadian national railways {sent} moncton shops -- effects of possible closure {sent} for almost a year now it has been apparent that the federal government is going to abandon 1,200 workers employed there . {sent} the government has steadfastly refused to guarantee that the shops would be kept open and that the jobs would be maintained . {sent} it is time for the government to take some positive action for the people of moncton , and for the workers at the cn shops in particular . {sent} organ donor awareness week {sent} tribute to medical profession {sent} this is organ donor awareness week . {sent} it is our prayer that all canadians will be made more aware of the magnificent progress achieved by the medical profession in the success rate of organ recipients . {sent} the battle will be won and our prayers will be answered when the waiting list for organ transplants is reduced to zero . {sent} sports {sent} victory of andré viger at boston {sent} this international achievement honours canada , and we may be justly proud of the success of this athlete , a quebecer and a canadian . {sent} speaking for myself and on behalf of my colleagues in the house of commons , i wish to offer andré viger our sincere congratulations . {sent} the economy {sent} criticism of government policies {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain ) : mr. speaker , this afternoon we heard two earnest pleas from conservative back-benchers . {sent} i wonder if these hon. members do not recognize that the very things about which they complain are a part of the conservative free enterprise policy of the government of which they are supporters . {sent} perhaps they would do well to realize that the very things about which they are most concerned are brought about by the policies introduced by the government . {sent} i wonder who they think they are kidding . {sent} energy {sent} petroleum and gas revenue tax -- call for removal {sent} the petroleum gas revenue tax , a liberal tax which was imposed years ago , is still charged on the production of oil from the syncrude project . {sent} i urge all members of the house to consider this matter very carefully . {sent} i urge the minister of energy , mines and resources ( miss carney ) to consider removing the petroleum and gas revenue tax from all oil sands development projects . {sent} agriculture {sent} request for protection of farmers {sent} mr. stan j. hovdebo ( prince albert ) : mr. speaker , western grain producers are asking for a fair deal . {sent} they are asking the government to give them the necessary support so that they can compete fairly with american producers . {sent} they are asking for the same return on a bushel of canadian grain as on that for a bushel in the united states . {sent} they ask that the government protect canadian farmers to the same extent that the u.s. government protects american farmers . {sent} is that too much for them to ask ? {sent} energy {sent} rescinding of tax advocated {sent} after all , why does he complain to the house of commons ? {sent} he should be complaining to his own government , since it is the one imposing taxes these days . {sent} oral questions {sent} oral question period {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- president 's letter to u.s. senators {sent} i ask the prime minister what those words of the president mean . {sent} have we , in effect , sacrificed the independence of our foreign policy in order to buy an affirmative vote on this issue ? {sent} the statement of the president of the united states was quite forthcoming . {sent} he views canada as a reliable ally , and that is the way we want it to be . {sent} we do give our friends the benefit of the doubt . {sent} prime minister 's discussions with united states president {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : mr. speaker , our prime minister is deliberately trying to avoid revealing the substance of conversations and talks that transpired between him and the president of the united states . {sent} has he perhaps agreed to remain silent on world affairs until he gets an affirmative vote before the u.s. senate ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the suggestion is unworthy and odious . {sent} canadian lumber exports {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : mr. speaker , the prime minister refused to participate in a recent debate . {sent} we wonder about the reason for his silence . {sent} dave , we 'll get timber fixed . {sent} has the canadian government conveyed to the president or the u.s. trade representative the intention that lumber will be fixed ? {sent} have we got ourselves into a position in which the prime minister is really in the president 's back pocket ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the leader of the opposition goes from one elegant point to another . {sent} the fact of the matter is that , as with all canadian governments , we have conducted the affairs of this country in the national interest at all times and in all circumstances . {sent} this initiative is under way in the united states . {sent} we do not know how it will end . {sent} it is designed to benefit canada , to create new jobs , to lower the unemployment rate , and to bring new prosperity and opportunities to canadians . {sent} we have always said that a good deal for canada is a fair deal for our partners , and if it is good for us it has to be good for them . {sent} that is the way we view life , and we think that is the way to view it . {sent} immigration {sent} russian army defectors in afghanistan {sent} can the minister confirm that discussion with the publisher ? {sent} when will he meet with mr. davies ? {sent} can he assure the house that , with that information , he will immediately instruct his officials to travel to afghanistan in order to give freedom to those six courageous young men ? {sent} in answer to questions in the house yesterday , i indicated that we would be prepared to discuss with journalists involved any co-operation which might bring those six soviets to canada . {sent} oppressed prisoners' permit program {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , i thank the minister for his projected consultations . {sent} however , yesterday he said that there was no instrument that could be used to bring those individuals here . {sent} canadian officials from the minister 's department still wish to give urine tests to these six individuals in pakistan . {sent} that is unfair . {sent} will the minister bring them here and process them from here ? {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , the problem is not on this side of the border . {sent} that is the difficulty . {sent} what i have just indicated to the house is that i had discussions which i think might yield the release to freedom in canada of those six soviet prisoners of war . {sent} certainly it is clear that that is what the editor and the journalists of the kingston whig-standard want . {sent} we are prepared to work together . {sent} i trust we will have the co-operation of the house of commons in trying to bring those six soviet prisoners of war to freedom in canada . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- lumber exports {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , the wheeling and dealing in washington continue to go on . {sent} what secret assurance is going to cost our lumber producers ? {sent} come out with some answers which give us an indication , please . {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , none was given , as my hon. friend knows , nor would any be given . {sent} president 's letter to u.s. senators {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i suppose he would have to ask president reagan inasmuch as he wrote the letter . {sent} however , i know it will astonish the ndp that we , the government of canada , seek to obtain a good deal for canada in any trading arrangement we enter into . {sent} we are satisfied that the longer term interests of the country require that a good deal for canada also produces benefits for our trading partners . {sent} possible lumber production losses -- government position {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary . {sent} could the prime minister at least show that he is worried and concerned about all these indications of potential losses for our lumber production ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i think the hon. member would be more successful as a writer for the soaps . {sent} i may point out to him that we have expressed every possible objection and made every possible representation with respect to the lumber problem . {sent} that is as difficult and as controversial as it will get . {sent} immigration {sent} russian army defectors in afghanistan {sent} i should like to ask the minister very directly why the mission , which had originally been given the green light by his department , was aborted . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , first of all the hon. member should not believe all that she reads , or all that she says . {sent} mr. crosbie : absolutely . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : even the whig-standard ? {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} there are some very practical problems on the ground that have to do with jurisdictions of other countries , and that have to do with the attitude of the people who are now presumably in control of those six prisoners of war . {sent} we believe we may have a way to resolve the problem . {sent} i would hope that it will not be jeopardized by irresponsible behaviour in this house of commons . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} canada-u.s.s.r. relations {sent} ms. sheila copps ( hamilton east ) : mr. speaker , i don't think it behooves the secretary of state to be so smug about the fact that it took three journalists -- {sent} some hon. members : order . {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} ms. copps : -- if it hadn't been for three journalists from the kingston whig-standard , these people would be -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} ms. copps : my question is for the secretary of state . {sent} i want a direct answer . {sent} there was a statement made on public television last night that the reason -- {sent} some hon. members : order . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} order , please . {sent} the hon. member has a question , i think , now . {sent} ms. copps : does the minister deny the reason the mission was scotched was because he wanted to improve relationships before his trip to the soviet union in april , 1985 ? {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , i deny that categorically . {sent} let me also say that i have had some experience before with canadian actions that might bring people from captivity to freedom . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} trade {sent} lumber exports to united states {sent} a senior-level u.s. delegation is today meeting in ottawa on this problem . {sent} it is imperative that we resolve this issue quickly , and this administration will spare no effort to accomplish that . {sent} is the prime minister today telling this house that there were no proposals made to canada at that meeting a week ago here in ottawa ? {sent} if my hon. friend is asking whether there was a proposal or a suggestion that impacted on any decision in regard to the vote before the u.s. senate , the answer is no . {sent} canada-united states negotiations {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary question . {sent} earlier in the question period the prime minister alluded that there might be free trade in lumber . {sent} there has been free trade between canada and the united states for the last 40 years . {sent} would the prime minister tell this house and tell canadians just exactly what further discussions on free trade in lumber will bring about ? {sent} freer free trade ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , i don't know how funny the people in british columbia will find that . {sent} unlike the ndp , people know there are members of the united states senate determined to cripple british columbia 's forest resource industries and we are opposed to that . {sent} that is why we are taking the position that we are on behalf of the british columbia forest producers . {sent} mr. deans : what position ? {sent} canadian national railways {sent} lay-offs at moncton shops {sent} mr. dave dingwall ( cape breton -- east richmond ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of transport . {sent} last august the minister assured the member of parliament for moncton that he could not `` support any massive reduction in the cn workforce in moncton '' . {sent} that is a pretty good proportion of the workforce of cn to be allocated to one region . {sent} i think the hon. member is referring to the shop situation . {sent} as he knows , there are three main shops in canada . {sent} there is excess capacity . {sent} cn is undertaking to review the excess capacity and to try to make the adjustments commensurate with the workload and the type of work which has to be carried out across the country . {sent} request that minister issue instructions to cn board {sent} is the minister going to live up to his commitment , or is he going to abdicate his responsibilities as minister of transport ? {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , i repeat that there are over 4,000 people employed by cn in the greater moncton area . {sent} i do take this matter very seriously , and that is why there are no precipitous decisions being made . {sent} we are trying to work the problem through to provide a long-term future for the people there commensurate with the realities of railroading in our country . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- fishermen 's unemployment insurance {sent} mr. rod murphy ( churchill ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , i am the minister responsible for monitoring canada am . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. axworthy : you finally found a job for your talents , joe . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : is that before you go to bed or after you get up ? {sent} mr. axworthy : you are under-qualified . {sent} mr. deans : so that 's what you do . {sent} mr. clark ( yellowhead ) : mr. deans , that 's what i do . {sent} what do you do ? {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. deans : we try to get answers to questions . {sent} statement attributed to canadian negotiator {sent} is he aware of that ? {sent} mr. crosbie : that 's called hearsay . {sent} administration of justice {sent} prosecution of journalist for airport activities {sent} does the prime minister consider it proper for the minister of justice , outside this house and before the trial of mr. de la grange , to declare him to be guilty of a criminal act ? {sent} it is a municipal prosecution undertaken by the municipality in that area . {sent} only the attorney general of quebec can intervene in the matter , if he so wishes . {sent} mr. guilbault ( saint-jacques ) : you 'll call him guilty then . {sent} mr. crosbie : i haven't found anybody guilty or not guilty . {sent} i find the hon. gentleman guilty of lamentable ignorance in bringing the matter up as he did . {sent} mr. kaplan : mr. speaker , i am not asking questions about the actual prosecution . {sent} as usual , the minister is wrong . {sent} the canadian security intelligence service act gives him the authority and responsibility for cases like this , if he wants to take it . {sent} ministerial responsibility {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , in the case at hand i find in favour of the minister of justice . {sent} mr. waddell : you 're not on the bench yet , brian . {sent} mr. crosbie : that 's a relief . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. deans : it 's also a surprise . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} trade {sent} lumber exports to united states {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the right hon. prime minister . {sent} in his response to my colleague , the member for skeena , he indicated that the government has a very clear position regarding softwood lumber exports to the united states to protect the canadian forest industry . {sent} would the prime minister simply explain what position the canadian government holds regarding softwood lumber ? {sent} hon. james kelleher ( minister for international trade ) : mr. speaker , the position of the government of canada is very clear on this matter . {sent} we do not , in any way , accept the contention of the americans that we are in any way subsidizing our industry , either through stumpage fees or other methods . {sent} pharmaceutical industry {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , my supplementary question is also with regard to the free trade issue . {sent} in response to the pharmaceutical industry lobby in the united states the national association of manufacturers said the following in their testimony : `` the united states government has received repeated assurances -- '' {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} does the hon. member have a question ? {sent} mr. riis : my question is to the right hon. prime minister . {sent} is it true that assurances have been given ? {sent} hon. james kelleher ( minister for international trade ) : mr. speaker , no assurances have been given . {sent} agriculture {sent} crop insurance -- recreational seeding inquiry {sent} mr. geoff wilson ( swift current -- maple creek ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of agriculture . {sent} there is a very real concern that this spring some prairie farmers will indulge in what they call `` recreational seeding '' . {sent} hon. john wise ( minister of agriculture ) : mr. speaker , some of us may find the term `` recreational seeding '' , which the hon. member used , to be somewhat interesting . {sent} i share his concern and appreciate the representations he is making . {sent} the federal-provincial crop insurance program has worked extremely well . {sent} we want to ensure that that program is widely used , but we must take all steps possible to ensure that the program is not misused . {sent} i can assure the hon. member that i will communicate his concerns to my provincial counterparts . {sent} external affairs {sent} libya -- advice to canadians to leave country {sent} hon. donald j. johnston ( saint-henri -- westmount ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the secretary of state for external affairs . {sent} last week he advised canadians in libya to use their own judgment on whether they should leave libya . {sent} the deputy prime minister said in the house : `` there is no immediate threat to canadians '' . {sent} with no apparent change in circumstances , the government is now telling canadians to leave . {sent} why has there been this reversal ? {sent} why did he not advise canadians to leave last week ? {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , there has been no reversal in the advice given by the government of canada . {sent} there has been no reversal on this question at all on this side of the house . {sent} we have consistently been making clear to canadians our judgment about the instability of the situation in libya . {sent} as i indicated to journalists who asked this question outside the house yesterday , while there is a period of relative calm now , there is no guarantee that that calm will continue . {sent} even with all of our contingency plans , we cannot guarantee that we will be able to come to the aid of each canadian in that very large country . {sent} for that reason i extended the advice of the government of canada that canadians now in libya should leave . {sent} presence of canadian companies in libya {sent} we have done what we can do . {sent} we have taken one action regarding the export of certain kinds of canadian oil drilling equipment with particular western technology . {sent} the prime minister has made it very clear that we are prepared to consider other actions in concert with other countries . {sent} i think it is important for the house of commons to recognize that the american action the other day was taken because they saw no alternative . {sent} what is essential now for canada and other countries interested in stability is that we work together to find alternative ways to deal with states which encourage terrorism . {sent} agriculture {sent} request for deficiency payment for western farmers {sent} mr. stan j. hovdebo ( prince albert ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister responsible for the wheat board . {sent} in regina yesterday my leader , the hon. member for humboldt -- lake centre , and myself met with senior officials of some western farm organizations to discuss the crisis facing canadian farmers . {sent} there was a strong consensus among those organizations that a deficiency payment is needed to offset the losses caused by low prices . {sent} hon. charles mayer ( minister of state ( canadian wheat board ) ) : mr. speaker , since as far back as the beginning of february we have been meeting with farm leaders on this topic . {sent} the minister of agriculture and myself had a chance last week to sit down with cfa officials in three meetings to talk about this very issue . {sent} we are monitoring the situation in line with what the prime minister has said , that we would like to do more , and in line with our fiscal restraints . {sent} international grain markets {sent} i have said many times , and say it again , that we do not believe what the europeans and americans are doing is useful with respect to prices . {sent} the canadian wheat board has an excellent reputation as a reliable supplier of high quality grain . {sent} we believe that will assist us in maintaining our markets . {sent} the larger question of depressed prices remains . {sent} we are doing what we can and will continue to monitor the situation and stay abreast of developments . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- u.s. senate committee meeting {sent} hon. lloyd axworthy ( winnipeg -- fort garry ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} senator dole has now presented a new alternative to try to break the impasse . {sent} he said there could be approval for tree trade fast-track negotiations subject to certain conditions , one being that canada would recognize there should not be subsidies for exports . {sent} if that is the basis for senate approval of fast-track negotiations , will the government of canada accept that particular notion as proposed by senator dole ? {sent} mr. speaker : i am prepared to allow the answer , but the hon. member knows it is very hypothetical . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : he has introduced the resolution . {sent} mr. speaker : can the hon. member find a way to phrase it which is not hypothetical ? {sent} it is important for us to know the position of the government of canada . {sent} is the position of the government of canada simply that there must be no conditions attached , as opposed to the question of the resolution put forward by senator dole ? {sent} corporate affairs {sent} gulf takeover of hiram walker {sent} mr. howard mccurdy ( windsor -- walkerville ) : mr. speaker , nine families control 53 per cent of canadian business . {sent} request that takeover be blocked {sent} customs and excise {sent} effect of prolonged inspections on tourism {sent} mr. reginald stackhouse ( scarborough west ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of national revenue . {sent} recent reports claim that prolonged customs inspections at the peace bridge have discouraged large numbers of american tourists from visiting ontario . {sent} what assurance can the minister give that there will not be unreasonable delays at the bridge during the coming tourist season ? {sent} however , i have already initiated some inquiries into the matter and , to the extent we can properly make some accommodations , we will make every attempt to carry that out . {sent} health {sent} reported pcb leakage from hydro-quebec installation {sent} hon. chas. l. caccia ( davenport ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of national health and welfare . {sent} on april 7 it was reported that for two years pcbs have been leaking from a hydro-quebec installation into the sabrevois river which in turn flows into the st. lawrence . {sent} what plan does the minister have to protect public health from contamination of drinking water by toxic chemicals ? {sent} the situation is being monitored carefully . {sent} the information i have is that there is no immediate health hazard or danger . {sent} however , the department and officials will continue to monitor the situation . {sent} request for introduction of safe drinking water legislation {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , that is a valid suggestion . {sent} we are examining the question of whether , if we go that route , what should be the provisions to cover some of the issues which , under present regulations and legislation , have not been covered . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- canadian patent law {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain ) : mr. speaker , my question is also for the prime minister . {sent} we have been told that is not true . {sent} therefore will the prime minister undertake to contact all of the members of that committee who are about to vote on a very crucial question and inform them that canada has no such intention ? {sent} canadian position {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain ) : mr. speaker , i am not exactly sure why the minister feels that this is a humorous matter . {sent} i will direct my supplementary question to whomever wants to answer . {sent} it makes no difference to me , as long as someone gets up and says something . {sent} indian affairs {sent} treaty rights of indians in northeastern alberta {sent} mr. jack shields ( athabasca ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of indian affairs and northern development . {sent} what is the minister doing about it ? {sent} hon. david crombie ( minister of indian affairs and northern development ) : mr. speaker , it is a matter that has been brought to my attention . {sent} since it involves treaty rights , i am sure the hon. member and other hon. members are aware that it is a complicated matter . {sent} the department has it under review . {sent} national revenue {sent} information given by officials to taxpayers {sent} mr. alfonso gagliano ( saint-léonard -- anjou ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of national revenue . {sent} today the minister outlined the measures that will assist staff in giving the right answers to canadian taxpayers in the future . {sent} we regret the situation where performance appears to be lacking somewhat . {sent} however , upon analysis it may well be that the performance is not as bad as was first indicated . {sent} in any event , as the hon. member knows , i have outlined some measures that we are taking to correct the situation . {sent} i can assure him that the staff has been interviewed and during these last few days we will attempt to be more diligent and more forthcoming with the answers we are giving to the public . {sent} request that government not seek interest payments on tax return mistakes caused by provision of incorrect information {sent} external affairs {sent} afghanistan -- united nations initiative {sent} my question is essentially a supplementary , with a view to addressing the underlying problem of the conflict in afghanistan . {sent} does the canadian government support the united nations initiative and proposal that were presented last week to afghanistan and pakistan regarding the withdrawal of soviet troops from afghanistan ? {sent} naturally , we intend to look for any other ways , if any can be found , whereby canada might supplement the excellent initiatives taken by the secretary general . {sent} immigration {sent} medical examinations of prospective immigrants {sent} mr. george baker ( gander -- twillingate ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of national health and welfare . {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : first , mr. speaker , i must indicate to the hon. member what these medical officers have done abroad . {sent} it is not a matter in which the health of canadians would be in any way jeopardized or that health checks will not be carried out . {sent} the hon. member 's information that there will not be medical doctors of canadian citizenship in those locations is correct . {sent} as we have done for many years , we will have medical checks performed by doctors who are native citizens of a particular country . {sent} those medical examinations will still take place and be checked here in canada , as is done in many other countries where we do not have medical doctors . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} this is long . {sent} extension of visitors' visas without medical examinations {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , that also is not the correct interpretation of the situation . {sent} we have the immigration medical review board on which a number of provincial representatives sit as these questions are discussed and decisions are taken . {sent} for example , manitoba , ontario , quebec , and new brunswick are on that board at this time . {sent} the hon. member should be careful when he assesses this . {sent} we receive many requests from members to ease visitors' entry into canada because of regulations in other countries . {sent} that is one side . {sent} on the other hand we have a responsibility to ensure that health is not jeopardized . {sent} when we see what has been done with the department of employment and immigration , external affairs , and my department , we see that those principles remain . {sent} they have not been jeopardized in any way -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} finance {sent} tax credit requested for volunteer workers {sent} mr. bill attewell ( don valley east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of finance . {sent} hundreds of thousands of canadians are involved in volunteer work with hospitals , charities , and many other worthy causes . {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , the government values very much the work of the volunteer sector and has taken certain steps to encourage the volunteer sector . {sent} i suggest that the hon. member 's proposal involves some complexities . {sent} it does lead to an increased administrative burden for a volunteer organization itself . {sent} however , it is certainly a worth-while proposal to consider , and i will do that . {sent} energy {sent} price of diesel fuel {sent} mr. ian waddell ( vancouver -- kingsway ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of energy , mines and resources . {sent} one of my constituents runs 35 diesel trucks from richmond , british columbia , through the interior of b.c. to the kootenays . {sent} my question is one that he would put to the minister if he were here . {sent} why has the price of diesel fuel not gone down like gasoline ? {sent} as a trucker he must pay this increased cost and he wants to know why the price has not gone down ? {sent} however , the marketing circumstances are different from gasoline , generally , and it responds to the market depending on competitive pressure . {sent} mr. waddell : one supplementary , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. speaker : the hon. member for algoma . {sent} agriculture {sent} price of farm fuel in manitoba {sent} mr. maurice foster ( algoma ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister responsible for the canadian wheat board . {sent} last thursday 600 farmers rallied at carman , manitoba , to protest grain prices and the high input costs . {sent} petro-canada and other oil companies have eliminated their volume discount . {sent} world prices for crude oil have dropped by 60 per cent since last fall . {sent} why is the government not taking action to reduce farm fuel input costs , especially in view of the fact that the minister has reduced the grain prices ? {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : the premise of your question is wrong . {sent} hon. charles mayer ( minister of state ( canadian wheat board ) ) : mr. speaker , i farm in that area . {sent} what the hon. member says is true , we have lost some of the discounts . {sent} i understand that some of those discounts are being looked at again . {sent} mr. foster : supplementary question , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} it is three o'clock . {sent} motions {sent} business of the house {sent} acceptability of petitions pursuant to former s.o. 73 {sent} the first is as follows : {sent} that the said petitions be examined pursuant to practices and procedures and pursuant to the provisions of standing order 73 in effect on september 9 , 1985 ; {sent} that the petitions found in order by the clerk of petitions be recorded in the votes and proceedings and those petitions found out of order be returned to the member filing the petitions ; {sent} that petitions be received pursuant to this order no later than the last sitting day of june , 1986 ; and {sent} that the government not be required to table a response to any petition filed pursuant to this order . {sent} private members' business -- change to conform with provisional standing orders {sent} hon. ray hnatyshyn ( president of the privy council ) : the second order reads as follows : {sent} mr. speaker : does the president of the privy council ( mr. hnatyshyn ) have the unanimous consent of the house to introduce his motions ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} mr. speaker : the house has heard the terms of the motions . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motions ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} motions agreed to . {sent} employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} in effect , this bill represents yet another broken promise of the prime minister of canada ( mr. mulroney ) . {sent} canadians will recall that throughout the 1984 election campaign the prime minister set out an ambitious program to implement full employment equity for all canadians . {sent} i remind those canadians who are watching the debate , and those who have been following it , of the words of the prime minister who said in august of 1984 : {sent} our party will ensure that companies providing services to the federal government hire increasing numbers of women to perform such services . {sent} when seeking government business , these companies will be required to detail their action plans , timetables , and programs for attracting , training and advancing women within their operations -- {sent} the prime minister went on to say this : {sent} numerical goals are one of several goals required : training and retraining are others . {sent} canadians remember the promises made by the prime minister during the federal election campaign . {sent} today , as we examine this legislation on employment equity , it is clear that those promises have been broken . {sent} in particular i speak of the disabled , of women , native people and visible minorities , all of whom had high hopes that the tory government would back up the rhetoric of the prime minister with concrete action . {sent} that was not to be . {sent} why is it that legislation such as effective employment equity legislation is so important ? {sent} there is an imbalance in both statistical and monetary terms . {sent} women have lower than average incomes . {sent} they are employed predominantly in sectors and in jobs which are the lowest paid . {sent} women do not earn the same amount as their male counterparts for performing the same or similar jobs . {sent} disabled people suffer from extraordinarily high unemployment rates . {sent} when they are employed they tend to be concentrated in the low-paying , marginal sectors of the labour market . {sent} they have additional expenses which those workers who are not disabled do not face , such as medication , special aids and devices , and special transportation services . {sent} native people have incredibly high levels of unemployment , something in the order of five times higher than the non-native population . {sent} recent immigrants to canada face particular difficulties in advancing in the workforce . {sent} they are frequently found in job ghettos or in the lowest paid , lowest skilled and most vulnerable sectors of the employment market . {sent} so there is a problem which should have been addressed by the government in its employment euqity legislation . {sent} i spent some three months touring the country with the subcommittee on equality rights . {sent} we travelled from coast to coast to hold public hearings . {sent} we heard representations from canadians representing women 's organizations , native people , the disabled and visible minorities . {sent} they expressed their very serious concerns about the provisions of bill c-62 . {sent} i wish to take this opportunity to remind the house and , through the house , canadians , of some of the concerns which have been raised regarding the legislation we are debating today . {sent} one of the key spokespersons for the disabled , beryl potter , of the coalition on employment equity for persons with disabilities , said this : {sent} like the bill -- it 's not even worth the paper it 's written on -- i 've never been so disillusioned in my life as i am with prime minister mulroney . {sent} i was a supporter of him . {sent} i worked for him in his campaign and i am totally , totally disillusioned . {sent} that from a former active conservative and one of the heads of the coalition on employment equity for persons with disabilities . {sent} the spokesperson for the inuit tapirisat of canada said : `` bill c-62 is of limited value '' . {sent} the spokesperson of the national association of women and the law , suzanne boivin , said : {sent} nothing will change . {sent} unfortunately , it is simply wishful thinking . {sent} the groups which are affected by this legislation are unanimous in their condemnation of it . {sent} at the end of the day it is clear that the minister of employment and immigration ( ms. macdonald ) and her government have not effectively consulted with the groups affected by this legislation . {sent} in fact , they have ignored the major concerns raised by these groups and by their spokespeople . {sent} first , i wish to recognize the excellent work done by judge rosalie abella in this area . {sent} we in the new democratic party have drawn upon her report in outlining what we believe to be the correct approach , the philosophical underpinnings of strong employment equity legislation . {sent} when we examine bill c-62 we see that the purpose of the bill as spelled out is certainly commendable . {sent} the purpose of the bill , as stated , is as follows : {sent} that is the guiding principle of this legislation . {sent} however , when we go on to read the bill itself , we find that it falls far short of that . {sent} once again , i would note that consultation with the groups affected by this legislation was sorely lacking . {sent} beryl potter , a former active supporter of the conservative party who now says that she has been betrayed by the prime minister of this country has said the following : {sent} we have tried everything . {sent} we have consulted with the ceic staff , appeared as witnesses before the parliamentary committee on the bill , made pleas to the prime minister directly and rallied on parliament hill . {sent} we have demanded that the bill be amended to include the government 's own departments and agencies and to include a penalty for failing to comply with employment equity plans . {sent} the government has not responded to any of our demands . {sent} in many cases , these people were lifted into the gallery . {sent} they were bitterly disappointed with the response of the government . {sent} we have five underlying concerns with respect to the weaknesses in this legislation and i would like to deal with each of them in turn . {sent} the first and perhaps most fundamental concern is with respect to the lack of any effective enforcement mechanism or penalties large enough to act as a deterrent to the corporate sector . {sent} shari stein , the legal counsel for the coalition on employment equity for persons with disabilities , has said the following about bill c-62 : {sent} in effect , there is no mechanism whatsoever to guard against plans which may be poorly devised and wholly inadequate to meet the needs of target groups . {sent} we have examined the response of the government to the unanimous recommendations of the equality committee . {sent} i see that the hon. member for surrey -- white rock -- north delta ( mr. friesen ) is present in the house . {sent} i know how strongly he supported the recommendations of the committee on equality and i know that he will want to have a chance to speak on that at the appropriate time . {sent} the committee recommended far more effective legislation . {sent} it recommended that the government give teeth to bill c-62 and ensure that there are adequate employment equity enforcement mechanisms . {sent} those mechanisms are not there and i deeply regret that . {sent} certainly the groups affected by this bill regret that very much . {sent} the bill makes no reference whatsoever to equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} as well , there are no provisions for mandatory contract compliance for firms which may be doing business with the government . {sent} clearly the experience in the united states has shown that contract compliance can be a very effective tool in changing discriminatory practices which may be followed by firms selling goods and services to the government . {sent} this was a major recommendation of the equality for all report and the government has chosen to ignore it . {sent} the abella commission 's recommendation no. 27 states that contract compliance should be imposed by legislation . {sent} the government has ignored that important recommendation . {sent} in bill c-62 , we see that contract compliance only applies to firms with 100 or more employees and only if the value of the contracts exceed $ 200,000 . {sent} moreover , failure to comply with the equity proposals of the government does not result in loss of a contract but only means that in the future , such a firm may be removed from competition . {sent} that is not much of an incentive to comply with employment equity . {sent} the provisions with respect to employment equity and in particular contract compliance are set out in the report entitled equality for all . {sent} the unanimous recommendation of the committee composed of five conservative members , one liberal member and myself was that contract compliance be a part of the employment equity legislation . {sent} we noted that in the united states , a similar executive order enforced by the office of federal contract compliance programs applies to contracts worth $ 50,000 or more granted to firms with 50 or more employees . {sent} the unanimous recommendation of our committee was that the ceiling of $ 200,000 and 100 employees is too high . {sent} there were recommendations in other areas about which the hon. member for surrey -- white rock -- north delta felt particularly strongly . {sent} i know that he fought hard in those areas . {sent} however , the reality is that that particular voice was not heard , and in some instances , perhaps we might breathe a sigh of relief that that was the case . {sent} however , i know that the hon. member himself may wish to comment with respect to his views on this important report . {sent} much of the wording of bill c-62 , particularly that of clause 4 which deals with the duty of employers , is very loose and ill defined . {sent} what , for example , is the effect of not defining reasonable accommodation or positive policies and practices ? {sent} this crucial question should surely be the subject of negotiation between employers and employees . {sent} instead , there has been some vague process of consultation and even that was only included as an amendment later in the day . {sent} once again , this was a recommendation made very clearly by the special committee on equality rights . {sent} we said that the legislation on employment equity should apply to all federal public-sector employers and to employers under federal jurisdiction . {sent} despite that unanimous recommendation , the government once again told us to forget it , that it is not prepared to implement that important recommendation . {sent} i think we can understand why the government did that if we read an extract from the government 's response . {sent} the government has said that it attempts to balance the needs of the designated groups against the government 's desire not to interfere unduly in the operations of employers . {sent} it is a pretty skewed balance and one which has left the groups which should be assisted by employment equity legislation , women , native people , the disabled and visible minorities , very critical indeed of the legislation . {sent} the government argued that federal departments and agencies are covered by the 1983 public service policy on affirmative action . {sent} i would remind the government that that policy does not apply to members of the rcmp or the armed forces . {sent} we know that those employers are some of the most reactionary and sexist employers in the country . {sent} we hoped that they would have been included under this legislation , weak though it may be . {sent} rather than that , we see a legacy of broken promises in so many other areas as well as in this fundamental area of social justice . {sent} these groups had hoped that corrective action would be taken to deal with past abuses and ongoing barriers to workplace equity . {sent} they also recognized that the previous government took no action whatsoever , and certainly they were critical of the former government for its failure to act . {sent} it is interesting to see the spokesperson for that party now standing up in opposition and railing at the government in respect of action which should have been taken many years ago . {sent} certainly many of us who were here when liberal governments were in power were critical of their inaction . {sent} we hoped that the tories would keep their promises . {sent} instead of providing mechanisms in the bill to ensure compliance through effective enforcement , bill c-62 relies on voluntarism and invitations . {sent} surely the past has shown us clearly that it is not good enough to leave it to employers to establish and pursue their own goals and targets . {sent} the minister somehow believes that if the failure of employers to live up to these goals and timetables is published , employers will be shamed into action . {sent} the record of employers across the land is well known and has been clearly documented . {sent} certainly they have not been shamed into taking steps which would involve the full participation of all canadians in the workforce . {sent} we need enforcement mechanisms with teeth . {sent} we need provisions for contract compliance , negotiation between management and workers , and a clearly stated commitment to the overriding principle of equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} those essential principles are lacking in this important piece of legislation . {sent} while clause 4 obliges employers to implement employment equity , the hon. member knows that there is no penalty in the bill if they do not comply with it . {sent} also , clause 5 obliges employers to prepare an action plan with goals and timetables , but there is no penalty for non-compliance . {sent} the hon. member for burnaby ( mr. robinson ) is a learned attorney , and i should like his views on the argument given by the government . {sent} i am a lawyer as well . {sent} i have read that act from beginning to end and from end to beginning . {sent} in any case , i cannot follow the argumentation of the government . {sent} if it were really in favour of enforcement , why would it not accept that simple amendment to clause 7 ? {sent} mr. robinson : mr. speaker , i thank my distinguished colleague and learned legal associate for his important question . {sent} i am not at all surprised that the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) has failed to comprehend the government 's reasoning . {sent} indeed , all reasonable canadians and all groups affected by the legislation do not understand the government 's reasoning . {sent} the bill is very specific . {sent} only clause 7 is specifically an offence section . {sent} it reads : {sent} an employer who fails to comply with section 6 is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $ 50,000 . {sent} clause 7 only deals with the failure to comply with section 6 . {sent} this is what we would like you to do , but if you are not prepared to do it , we are not prepared to enforce it '' . {sent} it is certainly a betrayal of the hopes and expectations of the groups affected . {sent} we could obtain a learned legal opinion from the chief law officer of the crown who is present in the chamber today , the minister of justice and attorney general of canada . {sent} he might want to point to a section in the canadian human rights act which would give the commission the power in fact to enforce these clauses or to put teeth into them . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i should like to deal with the position taken by the hon. member with regard to the enforcement policies and provisions in bill c-62 . {sent} as reported at page 12454 of hansard for yesterday , the minister made the following statement : {sent} the government is committed to ensuring that employment equity becomes a reality . {sent} we intend to knock on the doors of employers who do not meet their responsibilities . {sent} i can tell you , mr. speaker , that we will be knocking with a firm fist . {sent} that confirms exactly what we have been saying . {sent} the government only has somewhat of a fist , but no doors on which to knock , because there is no obligation on any employer to report progress . {sent} would the hon. member for burnaby ( mr. robinson ) tell us how he thinks the minister will be able to knock on the doors of employers with a firm fist ? {sent} what kind of a result does he think the minister will get ? {sent} how does he foresee the reaction of an average employer with 100 or more employees ? {sent} of course employers will be required to fulfil a couple of obligations . {sent} they will have to plan for removal of systemic discrimination and to present a plan of action . {sent} however , i do not see anything about progress in the bill . {sent} can the hon. member find anything in the bill about progress being reported to the canadian human rights commission ? {sent} mr. robinson : mr. speaker , the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) quite correctly pointed out one of the very serious weaknesses in the legislation . {sent} there is no real clout in the hands of the minister to enforce the legislation . {sent} all she can do is get down on bended knee and beg , plead , cajole , request , and urge . {sent} all she can do is knock on the door and say : `` please , mr. employer , hire more disabled persons and more women '' . {sent} that approach has been tried in the past for decades , and it has not worked . {sent} when we in the new democratic party looked at the legislation , we worked hard to strengthen the bill . {sent} hon. members of the official opposition also proposed amendments which would put some teeth into it . {sent} in the law itself there are no sanctions or teeth whatsoever . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i will quote further from the minister 's speech of yesterday . {sent} it is quite interesting how a minister of the crown could make such statements . {sent} i will come back later on in my speech about this because i noticed some interesting comments of hers yesterday . {sent} at page 12453 of hansard , the minister said : {sent} at the end of that year they will be required to report on the progress that they have made toward achieving these goals . {sent} these reports will be made public , open to media and public scrutiny -- and this is the second half of the two-tiered system -- {sent} this is exactly what judge abella rejected , voluntary reporting on progress . {sent} it has not happened yet and it will not start happening after bill c-62 is passed . {sent} mr. robinson : mr. speaker , i am pleased that the minister of national health and welfare ( mr. epp ) has joined me today in this important debate . {sent} i would be quite prepared to seek unanimous consent to ask the minister to answer that very important question . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. robinson : in the short time available , i would note that the hon. member is raising a very important question . {sent} under this legislation and , in particular , clause 5 of the legislation it states that while an employer has to prepare a plan which sets out various goals and timetables , this plan remains a secret document . {sent} the employer has to keep it locked in his or her principal place of business for a period of at least three years , but the employer does not even have to give it to the canadian human rights commission . {sent} that amendment was rejected . {sent} for that , as well as the many other reasons that we have been enunciating during the course of this debate , we are opposed to the third reading of this bill . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions and comments are now terminated . {sent} the hon. member for eglinton-lawrence ( mr. de corneille ) . {sent} we have to ask ourselves , does this bill in third reading , after we have tried to work on amendments and ways to improve it , fulfil its declared purposes ? {sent} it says : `` in the workplace '' . {sent} first , mr. speaker , it is only in some workplaces , it is not in `` the workplace '' . {sent} in fact , we have to say that `` the workplace '' only applies to those workplaces where there are more than 100 people employed , otherwise this bill does not apply . {sent} next , it does not apply to the entire private sector , only to a number of companies doing federal work . {sent} when we look at what it does apply to , we find that the bill applies to some federal crown corporations and about 800 federally regulated firms with more than 100 employees . {sent} it applies to only a very few workplaces in canada . {sent} therefore , from the beginning , the bill is a sham in terms of its alleged purposes . {sent} the bill says that no person shall be denied employment . {sent} clause 2 states : {sent} these are the people in the groups to which the bill is supposed to apply and whom it is supposed to help . {sent} it says it is `` to achieve equality '' . {sent} this bill does not change a single solitary thing , mr. speaker . {sent} it does not change anything . {sent} it is supposed to attack systemic discrimination against certain groups . {sent} by systemic discrimination we mean the way the system works , the network , the basic underlying system as we know it , the ingrained system . {sent} women know what this ingrained system is because they know that they have not achieved in any sense the positions of leadership and of power in any way equally to men . {sent} the handicapped certainly know what the system is . {sent} they know in very many ways that they are regarded as useless instead of being regarded as excellent resources . {sent} various minority groups , especially our native peoples , understand how the system works , but it does not work for them . {sent} this bill is suppose to change systemic discrimination . {sent} it is supposed to affect the system . {sent} it is a sham . {sent} the bill is an absolute sham . {sent} who says it is a sham , mr. speaker ? {sent} there is not one single person who works in the field of human rights who does not regard the bill as a sham . {sent} that is not the complete list . {sent} that is only a list of some of the umbrella groups . {sent} there have been certain comments that i think are worth putting on the record . {sent} for example , carol tator , president of the urban alliance on race relations , says : {sent} what the government has done has given us an empty , symbolic gesture toward the whole problem of achieving employment equity . {sent} shari stein , a lawyer for the advocacy resource centre for the handicapped , adds that bill c-62 is so weak it is potentially harmful . {sent} that is why the opposition is so determined . {sent} if this legislation moved a small step in the right direction , one would not feel that one had to fight this to get it changed drastically . {sent} however , when groups like this call this bill harmful , one must listen , take notice , and realize that a lot is at stake . {sent} the purpose of this bill is allegedly to ensure that no person is denied employment opportunities or benefits . {sent} those are high sounding ideals , but what does this bill do for our minority groups ? {sent} my colleagues , who have analysed this bill as i have , have pointed out that , in effect , this bill only asks employers to file a report . {sent} the terminology of the report is not laid out . {sent} we moved amendments to clarify some of the terms , but they were not supported by the government . {sent} only employers who have more than 100 employees and fall into limited categories are affected by this bill . {sent} they have to file some reports . {sent} we asked how the government would ensure that employers would have a plan for the future to change their employment practices . {sent} after fighting against it as hard as possible , the government finally saw fit to require employers to prepare a plan setting out their goals and timetables . {sent} the government said employers should fill their drawers with their plans and keep them for at least three years . {sent} they are not to send these plans to the government or the canadian human rights commission , but only to fill their drawers with them . {sent} it is ludicrous that the government , in all sincerity , could present such a bill as this which is mocked by the people whom it is supposed to serve . {sent} the government persists in refusing all of the recommendations which have been made to it by the minority groups and in ignoring the very reports which were presumably the cause for bringing forth this legislation . {sent} the women of canada comprise 51 per cent of our population . {sent} as a group , they earn lower salaries than men and perform a higher proportion of part-time work . {sent} very often they are the last hired and the first fired . {sent} due to their frequent part-time employment , they are in a situation of great vulnerability . {sent} over the decades the system has not corrected itself . {sent} we cannot accept the views of the member for capilano ( mrs. collins ) that , because she is an eternal optimist and has faith in the canadian people , things will work out . {sent} it is not a question of the canadian people , in whom we all have faith . {sent} it is a question of the employers who have to make a profit . {sent} some of these employers are good citizens . {sent} however , it is not the good citizens toward whom we direct legislation , but the bad ones . {sent} there is no guarantee in this bill that the bad citizens , or let us say the more self-centred citizens , in the corporate field are going to understand that we mean business . {sent} the parliament of canada is not a place to play games , and we resent that the government is playing games with an issue as serious as equality for such a large proportion of our population . {sent} surely no injustice can be tolerated simply on the grounds that its correction will cost money . {sent} let us keep the environment clean and let us keep the workplace clean and free of inequality and discrimination . {sent} today women are supporting themselves and their dependants . {sent} they are working for a living and for survival . {sent} they have the right to equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} they have the right to take their rightful role as equal human beings . {sent} that is what canadians want from the government . {sent} we sometimes hear from the less progressive elements of the business community that women must be moved from low-paying jobs into higher paying jobs through affirmative action . {sent} that is a laudable thought , but who will then fill the low-paying jobs which are left vacant ? {sent} the problem is that those jobs are undervalued . {sent} if they continue to be undervalued because women fill them , we will not have solved the problem . {sent} the lot of women has not been corrected by time and the so-called goodwill which exists . {sent} despite educational campaigns and efforts by women 's groups , the situation still has not changed . {sent} the claim that when the public sees what corporations and companies are doing they will make them change their ways is a vain and silly proposal of the tories . {sent} it is not enough to simply rely on so-called public opinion and pressure . {sent} there must be legal requirements backed up by penalties for violation . {sent} there must be penalties for lack of compliance . {sent} there must be an enforcement mechanism . {sent} we all know this is the case , yet the government persists in ignoring these obvious requirements to make this bill meaningful . {sent} women 's groups condemn this legislation as a sham . {sent} they constitute 51 per cent of the population . {sent} they were promised action but received a bill with no compliance or penalties . {sent} i would like to deal with each of the minority groups , but time does not permit it . {sent} time does not permit me to explore the loss of dignity which results from inequality . {sent} these people want the right to work . {sent} they do not want to be on the dole . {sent} the reason a law with enforcement provisions is required is that very often , as martin luther king said , the law is a teacher . {sent} it helps to make all of us understand our role . {sent} i remember many , many years ago , about the time i was ordained , that a black priest came to toronto from new york city . {sent} i tried to find him quarters in a motel or hotel near toronto . {sent} i was told by the proprietors that they had nothing against him because they liked black people , but the trouble was that the people who came up from the states did not like black people . {sent} if there were a law , of course , they could point to it and say , `` we have to do this '' . {sent} however , since there was no law , they could not comply and they felt it was best for their business that they did not provide this man with accommodations . {sent} i am not talking about the united states deep south ; i am talking about an area in ontario in the 1950s . {sent} why am i telling this story ? {sent} to point out that if people have something to point to and say , `` i have to do this '' , it helps them to justify what they know they should do . {sent} this is what the law requires and this is what they will do . {sent} we are talking about something which deals with making us all equal as brothers and sisters together . {sent} i think archibald macleish summed that up when he was writing a poem about the astronauts when they were looking down from the moon upon the earth . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : questions and comments . {sent} mr. nickerson : mr. speaker , i listened very carefully to a good presentation by the hon. member . {sent} he presents himself as an advocate for the end of discrimination against women . {sent} however , am i not correct in thinking that he is a member and supporter of a church which refuses to ordain women as bishops ? {sent} would he tell us why that is the case ? {sent} would he take this opportunity to stand in his place and tell us , if he is a man of conviction , that he thinks the church of which he is a member is wrong ? {sent} mr. friesen : repent ! {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , i am not sure whether the hon. member for western arctic ( mr. nickerson ) is advocating support for the churches in such a stand or whether he is criticizing it . {sent} perhaps he wants to know what my particular stand is . {sent} i could point out to him that the position which has historically existed in the anglican church , to which i belong , has forbidden the idea of the ordination of women as priests or as bishops . {sent} that position has been modified , at least in the church in canada , so that we ordain women as priests . {sent} i have certainly supported that move . {sent} i think that argument is specious and reactionary . {sent} therefore , i have to say to my hon. friend that i believe that the anglican church to which i belong should hastily reform its position and join the 20th century . {sent} i invite conservative members of parliament to join the 20th century as well and see to it that women are given equality in all areas . {sent} there is no room for inequality in this day and age and certainly not in this country . {sent} mr. keeper : mr. speaker , the hon. member for eglinton -- lawrence ( mr. de corneille ) is a member of a party which formed the government of this country for a good number of years . {sent} it lead us to the present circumstances in which , for example , there are very few women in senior management positions in the federal public service . {sent} his government tolerated this situation while it was in office . {sent} it promulgated policies which did not change that situation . {sent} there was no contract compliance policy which worked . {sent} the liberals did not force companies to take action on employment equity . {sent} i am wondering how he can stand up in this house and criticize the conservatives for doing just what his government did over a number of years . {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , first i would disagree with my friend on his statement that the liberal government did not do anything . {sent} mr. keeper : nothing effective . {sent} mr. de corneille : i think he has to realize that a very large number of steps were taken , step by step , starting with the federal human rights commission . {sent} then of course we brought forward guidelines in the treasury board and we took other steps in the public service . {sent} my colleague , the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) , was trying to bring into legislation amendments which would make sure that government departments fall under the requirements of this bill . {sent} i certainly agree that more needs to be done . {sent} the charter was passed four years ago and there was plenty of time for this government to know what was coming up . {sent} it has finally decided to turn to the council on social development to deal with providing money to people for court challenges . {sent} that organization sent a list of these people to my friend , the secretary of state , but he has not acted on it . {sent} seven months have gone by and these people , who have genuine problems to take to court , are still waiting for the government to act . {sent} it is problems such as that which make me so concerned that this bill is a sham . {sent} we will see more reports like this , with greater bureaucracy , but no action . {sent} after listening to some remarks yesterday , i looked at the record and found that in saskatchewan where the ndp was in power for some time , there is no legislated mandatory affirmative action program . {sent} in manitoba , they only passed a pay equity act in june , 1985 . {sent} that is the only measure of any consequence in the area of affirmative action . {sent} in british columbia , where the new democratic party was in power for some time , there is no legislation at all dealing with this subject . {sent} i suggest that all of us have come to it a bit late and i would expect there would be some humility with respect to this subject . {sent} the fact is that we did pass the canadian human rights act in 1977 and the charter of rights in the last parliament . {sent} there is no definition of reasonable accommodation in the bill . {sent} all of the groups representing the disabled told us that there must be a definition or the bill will be ineffective . {sent} as a member who deals with disabled people very often , will he elaborate on this , because the government has refused to accept our proposals for a definition of reasonable accommodation ? {sent} does he believe that this bill can be effective for disabled people when it does not include a definition of reasonable accommodation ? {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , obviously the disabled and their organizations felt that this was a very essential and important definition to put in the bill . {sent} otherwise , the danger is that a disabled person could be defined as someone who has a sprained thumb . {sent} there are no terms of reference on which the the government or the human rights commission can act . {sent} the absence of this definition makes the bill even more faulty than it is . {sent} the disabled who came here last week were disappointed that they could not find a place in the gallery for their wheelchairs . {sent} this very place is limited in its facilities for the disabled , yet we are supposed to be setting an example for the rest of the country . {sent} they came here and tried to cry out in protest in front of the house . {sent} they tried , through the media , to ask for these small amendments in order to give them reassurance that the bill dealt with this issue seriously . {sent} yet they were refused . {sent} some of the disabled who came here were blind . {sent} they may have been blind but they can see better than the tories . {sent} they can look through the tories and see the cynicism and hypocrisy . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i regret that the hon. member 's time has expired . {sent} adjournment debate {sent} proceedings on adjournment motion {sent} subject matter of questions to be debated {sent} ( b ) request for consultations ; the hon. member for cochrane -- superior ( mr. penner ) -- native economic development fund -- extent of expenditures . {sent} ( b ) request for increase in estimates . {sent} employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} i am taking part in a debate on a motion which would give the government an opportunity to reconsider seriously the representations that have been made in the house as well as in many other places about the flaws in the bill . {sent} first , i want to respond to the comment by the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) about how slowly we have come to understand these matters . {sent} that observation does have some fairness to it . {sent} the proclamation of the charter of rights and freedoms has demonstrated a growing sensitivity to these matters . {sent} the hon. member commented on the western provinces that have been governed by the new democratic party . {sent} saskatchewan does not have a new democratic government at this time and british columbia , of course , has not had a new democratic government for more than a dozen years . {sent} in manitoba , i am pleased to say that the new democratic government was recently re-elected and that government has been very concerned about making progress in this area , particularly as far as its own employment is concerned . {sent} members should be aware that in its negotiations with the union of government employees , the government of manitoba took action in areas which the federal government has refused to include in this bill . {sent} i want to note one paragraph in particular . {sent} it states : {sent} another strategy that was adopted in saskatchewan that has , in the first instance , produced some results , was the approach taken in relation to the provincial crown corporations . {sent} under the former government -- {sent} presumably , this is a document from the present saskatchewan conservative government which states : {sent} under the former government , affirmative action encompassed special measures to eliminate systemic discrimination and to open up employment opportunities to the key target groups ( native , women , disabled ) . {sent} the crown corporations were given a specific directive from the provincial government to develop affirmative action plans . {sent} native people were designated the priority , although both women and the disabled were included as target groups . {sent} the paragraph concludes : {sent} the crown corporations were to demonstrate leadership and to provide an example to the private sector of effective affirmative action programs . {sent} i am sure that some of my colleagues from saskatchewan will be aware of these matters , even if the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) was not . {sent} it seems to me that it is important to give this opportunity to the government so that it can take another look at the matter . {sent} after all , initially , there were fine statements of intention . {sent} that was not the case , however , when she was faced with the type of particulars seen in the city of toronto . {sent} these were made obvious by a couple of reports last winter and spring which asked : `` no discrimination here ? '' {sent} `` who gets the jobs ? '' {sent} whether this came about because of race and colour , or whether it was a matter of accents or the names people bore , these persons had great difficulty in obtaining employment . {sent} these demonstrations of discrimination and racist practices were certainly known to the minister . {sent} i made a point of writing to the minister after each of these reports to say to her : `` here is the evidence . {sent} we require strong action . {sent} when she tabled bill c-62 we were all concerned to see what was in it . {sent} even on first reading of it we found it did not contain very much . {sent} we found that , primarily , it was a basis for determining what the composition of workforces in large companies would be . {sent} it was primarily large companies with which it dealt . {sent} government departments were not included . {sent} we were told that other action was supposedly being taken -- again , government by press release . {sent} but the government was not making itself subject to this reporting provision . {sent} only large employers with 100 or more employees would be required to report on the composition of their workforces . {sent} that is all the bill provides . {sent} certainly , there is a penalty for not complying , but who will tell me that $ 50,000 is a large penalty for the type of corporations with which we are dealing here ? {sent} it is not much of a penalty and not much will result in the way of action by employers . {sent} at least with the addition of clause 5 we have the following statement : {sent} an employer shall , in respect of each year , prepare a plan setting out {sent} ( a ) the goals that the employer intends to achieve in implementing employment equity -- {sent} ( b ) the timetable for the implementation of those goals . {sent} however , there are weaknesses in this clause , as i will suggest in a few moments , following others which still do not go very far . {sent} employers were not just expected to report on the results of their employment practices , they were to set goals . {sent} there was no demand , no setting of a timetable for real progress to be made . {sent} given the protests of group after group , there has been a real formation of coalitions to press the government to give more . {sent} i underscore that point as it comes from the various groups across the country . {sent} if the government does not do something now , then i am convinced that it will not do it in the life of its mandate which the electorate gave it in 1984 . {sent} we will have to wait until the year 1990 before seeing anything in the way of stronger legislation . {sent} that makes it all the more imperative for the government to take seriously its own statement of conviction and principle , the statements which have been uttered from one quarter after another to the effect that the bill is inadequate . {sent} clause 7 contains a provision for the levy of a fine . {sent} as i have already stated , the sanction here for employers who do not act on the provisions of the bill apply only to the reporting provision . {sent} surely , sending the bill back to committee in order to open up the possibility of adding to clause 5 in such a way that employers will be under the onus of law to do something about it makes sense . {sent} the payment of a $ 50,000 fine could become a mere business expense if an employer did not want to go to the other trouble . {sent} in fact , $ 50,000 would not buy that much time , if an employer has to have some skilled people working in the area . {sent} a fine less than the cost of following through with these measures is certainly tantamount to inviting a violation of the law . {sent} clause 5 , the clause to which i was just alluding , ensures that employers do not simply report on their employment practices but actually implement plans . {sent} surely if the government is serious about achieving employment equity as it declares on the face of the bill , then we need more strength in this area . {sent} when thinking of the target groups , i think particularly of the visible minorities and people who belong to ethnocultural communities . {sent} this is not necessarily always a matter of visibility in terms of colour or race . {sent} visibility can be a matter of accents or features that strike an employer or personnel officer as being alien . {sent} then , of course , there are the native people of canada who are entering the cities in large numbers seeking employment . {sent} for that matter , they are seeking employment outside cities . {sent} the needs and concerns of the disabled and women have been addressed eloquently by other members of the house . {sent} surely a government that states all the good intentions the minister and her parliamentary secretary have declared should do something more with clause 5 if it believes in those principles . {sent} the flaws in clause 5 are overwhelming . {sent} where will the plans be kept ? {sent} will they be kept at the head offices of the companies ? {sent} there is no obligation to tell anyone about the plans . {sent} in another clause , there is a provision for consultation with unions . {sent} how can there be consultation if the unions or whatever representatives the workers put forward do not have a right to see the plans ? {sent} the most shocking thing that those surveys of toronto employment practices demonstrated was that there was widespread discrimination and that employers did not think that there was anything wrong with that . {sent} in that kind of a context , surely we need to lay the provisions on the employer . {sent} surely there must be a requirement that the plans be public documents and be freely available to anyone who wants to look at them . {sent} surely the community groups and those who have been frozen out by employers have the right of access to these plans if there is to be any kind of action taken on them . {sent} i realize that i am drawing near the end of my time . {sent} in conclusion , i wish to say that i hope devoutly , with the entire depth of my being , that the government will take this seriously and will take the bill back to committee . {sent} last thursday i had a terribly depressing experience when , in one vote , we took care of 19 amendments to the bill . {sent} the government voted every one of them down . {sent} it seems to me that the words which the then opposition leader and now prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) said in june , 1984 ring very hollow now . {sent} he said then that there is no obligation more compelling , no duty more irresistible , than to ensure that minorities live at all times in conditions of fairness and justice . {sent} bill c-62 does not do that . {sent} it flouts the principles the prime minister stated before the last election . {sent} mr. keeper : mr. speaker , i have a question to ask of my colleague . {sent} does my colleague have any confidence that this legislation will be a big enough stick to bring about the results that are so greatly needed today ? {sent} mr. epp ( thunder bay -- nipigon ) : mr. speaker , i appreciate the question asked by my colleague . {sent} the answer is certainly that i have no such confidence . {sent} i think of the situation in which would-be workers find themselves across the country . {sent} i have been focusing on toronto because the urban alliance on race relations along with the metropolitan social planning council carried out the kinds of studies that were required there . {sent} these were quite imaginative studies which demonstrated the depth of racist and discriminatory practices in that city . {sent} i am sure toronto is not unusual . {sent} people want to work and they seek the reality of employment equity . {sent} those other concerns do face us . {sent} this bill does not provide any kind of sanction for that kind of action . {sent} it provides that a fine ought to be paid if reports are not made , but there is no provision for action on any of these matters . {sent} for a broken reed to be offered the people of canada as a big stick is surely for us to be left with the gravest disappointment in what the government claims to be doing . {sent} i wonder if the legislation should not provide for a larger fine in order that it be enforceable . {sent} mr. epp ( thunder bay -- nipigon ) : mr. speaker , the matter of a $ 50,000 fine is worth some careful consideration . {sent} the cost of establishing an office to work toward employment equity in a company would , i suspect , on an annual basis , easily run to $ 100,000 . {sent} the companies must employ officers with the kinds of skills required . {sent} i would expect that such a person would easily cost $ 35,000 or $ 40,000 per year . {sent} if one thinks of secretarial and other costs , i am sure it would exceed $ 50,000 in the way of costs . {sent} surely to have a fine which is less than the cost of conforming to legislation is an open invitation to have it violated . {sent} it seems to me that that is a final declaration on the part of a government which is not really serious about the matter . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i should like to deal with the point just made by the hon. member regarding the $ 50,000 fine for non-compliance . {sent} both the official opposition and the new democratic party attempted to get the government to understand that $ 50,000 was not enough . {sent} we wanted $ 500,000 to be the fine for non-compliance . {sent} for example , i am referring to changes to their buildings so that handicapped people will have better access or so their establishments will be more secure and safe for those who may be blind , deaf , or whatever . {sent} i do not see any measure in the bill for us to follow up on this with employers except to agree voluntarily that they will report on their plans after three years . {sent} for example , access to buildings can be difficult and there can be problems in terms of security and safety . {sent} does he agree that perhaps it is merely symbolic to have a $ 50,000 fine for larger companies ? {sent} mr. epp ( thunder bay -- nipigon ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member is absolutely right . {sent} at best the bill will be a symbol . {sent} we have had a number of such symbols since the early 1980s with the establishment of the charter of rights and freedoms and the work of several committees of the last parliament . {sent} in early 1984 , two years ago , it declared the following in the title of its report equality now . {sent} there were also reports dealing with the situation faced by disabled people , as another example . {sent} whether or not the last government was buying time in appointing judge rosalie abella as a royal commissioner to investigate this area , i would not want to say just now . {sent} we are very grateful to her for having clarified for canada what affirmative action could involve and the way in which we could make progress . {sent} there is a terrible danger in that regard , and i see no readiness on the part of the government to face up to that . {sent} if the government accepts the motion and takes the matter back to committee , hopes would spring up somewhat . {sent} mr. jean-robert gauthier ( ottawa -- vanier ) : mr. speaker , i appreciate being given the floor at this time of day because i have several remarks to make on the motion before us . {sent} and i would like to speak in support of the motion before the house , mr. speaker , namely , that : {sent} mr. speaker , i think that today we have heard some very positive comments on the measures proposed to achieve employment equity . {sent} of course not . {sent} mr. speaker , i would remind the house that the three clauses in question -- {sent} clause 3 of bill c-62 deals with interpretation . {sent} we also proposed that persons who employ 25 people or more should be subject to the provisions of the act rather than employers of 100 or more as defined in the present state of the bill . {sent} i will return to my point about federal departments and agencies being included in the bill , but first i want to make sure that i deal with these clauses in order . {sent} clause 5 refers to the action plans of companies setting out their goals and timetables . {sent} we think , in all honesty , that they should be made public . {sent} why should they be hidden in the vaults of the head offices of national organizations ? {sent} it could be difficult for someone in vancouver to know exactly what is the action plan of a company which has its head office in toronto . {sent} it may be hidden in a vault and may not be accessible to anyone who wanted to see it . {sent} we consider clause 5 to be weak and would like to see it strengthened by making the action plans of employers public and by setting out goals and timetables so that all of us can see them . {sent} they will prefer to pay the $ 50,000 fine than to become involved in capital expenditures or capital works which may be required to eliminate systemic discrimination . {sent} we are talking about two very different things here . {sent} we are talking about discrimination as a matter of fact toward four target groups -- women , native people , visible minorities , and the handicapped . {sent} also there is systemic discrimination which is inherent in the system , in the workplace , in our habits , and sometimes even in our thinking . {sent} as far as i am concerned , they are discriminated against by a system which is unresponsive and irresponsible with regard to their employment . {sent} i want to come back to the first point . {sent} at page 12452 of hansard , the minister of employment and immigration ( ms. macdonald ) said : {sent} i can say quite frankly that in the years before this government came to power i heard a lot of talk about fairness and equality but i saw no action . {sent} what we are seeing here today is a government committed to action in this field . {sent} where was the minister in 1982 when the charter of rights was adopted ? {sent} she saw action there . {sent} as a matter of fact i will remind her of what was said either by me or by somebody else in this house recently because it is worth repeating . {sent} although i am not very proud of our record , i am not ashamed of it . {sent} there have been efforts . {sent} i must remind the house that measures were taken . {sent} we did take action , mr. speaker . {sent} we did not do enough to satisfy many people including your humble servant , but i still say that efforts were made and that we have to recognize this . {sent} things were done , mr. speaker , but it was not enough . {sent} mr. speaker , employment equity means that no one should be refused a job for reasons which have nothing to do with his ability . {sent} indeed , for us , frenchspeaking canadians , mr. speaker , the native people are a visible minority . {sent} thus we feel that three groups might have been enough . {sent} at any rate , my view is that there was no need to add that . {sent} mr. speaker , the quest for employment equity must cut through all practices that discriminate against certain groups which have long been subject to such a discrimination . {sent} there must first be an effort towards identifying and eliminating discrimatory barriers . {sent} and when i speak of discrimatory barriers , it may be relevant to mention that where practices of systems are concerned , discrimatory barriers to employment do now exist . {sent} as we know , mr. speaker , people are discriminated against for a number of reasons and in a number of ways . {sent} some are discriminated against because of their economic or social conditions . {sent} well , what do you expect ? {sent} others , for political reasons or because they lack education , vocational training . {sent} it is subtle , sometimes persistent and it is pervasive . {sent} the fact is there ! {sent} it is systemic . {sent} i would like to quote from page 10 of the report , concerning what judge abella views as systemic discrimination . {sent} systemic discrimination requires systemic remedies . {sent} the effect of the system on the individual or group , rather than its attitudinal sources , governs whether or not a remedy is justified . {sent} remedial measures of a systemic and systematic kind are the object of employment equity and affirmative action . {sent} mr. speaker , it could not be said any better . {sent} judge abella has described this quite well , and i agree with her . {sent} during the remaining minutes , i should like to deal briefly with a problem which concerns a great many people in the ottawa-vanier and ottawa-carleton regions . {sent} i refer to the issue of applying this bill to the main employer and the federal departments . {sent} as you can see , mr. speaker , this is quite relevant to bill c-62 . {sent} mr. speaker , as you know , the classification of a position depends on the number of points it is given , and the salary in turn depends on the classification . {sent} mr. speaker , this is a way to identify the relative value of jobs . {sent} heaven knows we urgently need a thorough study of the situation and an answer to the classification problem ! {sent} in the 1984 election campaign , members of the progressive conservative party told public servants : we will put position classifications on the bargaining table . {sent} and then they said : we are going to do a study . {sent} and they did . {sent} in the classification process , the person who did the classification has decided how the position is rated and what the employee is going to earn . {sent} and these are very important points for public servants . {sent} we think there are obstacles in this system which sometimes discriminates against certain people , and we want to correct that . {sent} in my opinion , mr. speaker , ours is a reasonable position . {sent} since the government made that an election promise , it should at least keep its word on this and give public servants the advantage of being able to negotiate job classifications in the near future . {sent} mr. speaker , i asked the question : where are these plans ? {sent} i was told today that 41 strategy plans are available directly from the departments . {sent} three departments have failed to produce their plans . {sent} we will see . {sent} i asked whether they were available to the public , and i was told it would take a truck to transport them . {sent} can somebody on the government side tell us why the affirmative action plans in the departments ... perhaps somebody might tell us what this is all about . {sent} are they satisfactory ? {sent} have they been assessed ? {sent} has anything been done as a result of this important affirmative action initiative ? {sent} mr. speaker , i am all for it . {sent} and i think every member of this house will agree . {sent} i know that thirteen unions are having meetings with the treasury board representative every two months , and that a report is to be submitted by march 1987 . {sent} i hope to to come back at a subsequent stage to continue my comments . {sent} mr. epp ( thunder bay -- nipigon ) : mr. speaker , i have a comment on some of the statements the member made , and i have a question for him as well . {sent} there was debate earlier this afternoon dealing with the strength or weakness of provisions for affirmative action in the province of saskatchewan . {sent} i note that under the previous new democratic government in saskatchewan affirmative action provisions were implemented for crown corporations , particularly in northern saskatchewan . {sent} progress had been made . {sent} i have a report of a human rights consultant to the department of the secretary of state . {sent} the report notes that when the conservative government came into power in saskatchewan it made the policy voluntary for crown corporations . {sent} the consultant notes that the respondents are discovering that these affirmative action plans are in no way entrenched within the employment systems of all the crown corporations . {sent} with the change in government , the political commitment has waned . {sent} each crown corporation now decides its own policy , with the result that the program has become fragmented and dependent upon the particular commitment of the individual corporation . {sent} the report indicates that the respondents have concluded that the weakness of their strategy lies in its voluntary nature . {sent} to what extent does the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) feel that bill c-62 reflects a similar turn by the federal conservative government to a voluntary approach ? {sent} how dramatically does he think the bill will fail in achieving employment equity ? {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , in order to do justice to that rather important question , i invite the member to read some of the speeches that i have made in the last while on this bill . {sent} in the last election campaign in manitoba all parties paid homage to employment equity and said that they would commit themselves to that program . {sent} i take it that manitoba was moving in that direction . {sent} i am told by my colleague , the member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) , that in saskatchewan only five crown corporations have an affirmative action program . {sent} according to press reports , the government is cutting funds to these companies and there is also a hiring freeze . {sent} the present government is not , therefore , as enthusiastic as the previous government was . {sent} let us hope that it comes to its senses . {sent} we are told not to believe everything we read , but from press releases i understand that some actions were being taken in saskatchewan with regard to employment equity . {sent} british columbia has yet to come up with employment equity legislation . {sent} my research does not show the existence of any such legislation in b.c. at all . {sent} we are hoping that a more sensitive and sensible government will come into power there some day and bring some equity to employment practices . {sent} i call this the smoke and mirrors bill . {sent} that is the title i put on my copy . {sent} it reflects what we all like but it does not do much in the way of action . {sent} i invite the hon. member to read some of the comments we have made regarding the improvements to the bill through the 20-odd amendments we tried to get through . {sent} they were all turned down by the government because members opposite do not like constructive and worth-while amendments to their legislation . {sent} they feel it is sacred and therefore untouchable . {sent} i disagree . {sent} this house should have more understanding of the issues and should debate them a little longer . {sent} that is why i want the bill to go back to committee . {sent} mr. speaker : any further questions or comments ? {sent} debate . {sent} as my friend just indicated , it should be called a smoke and mirrors bill , or a fluff and puff bill , or a magician 's bill . {sent} now you see it , now you don't . {sent} in my deliberations with friends and colleagues across the country there seemed to be the impression that the government is acting on employment equity to some extent . {sent} the important words there are `` to some extent '' . {sent} it is a minute step in the right direction on a very long and difficult road . {sent} in one sense it does more damage than good in that it gives the impression that employment equity is finally being recognized . {sent} finally we are going to do something to help the disabled , native people , women and visible minorities to experience equality and equity in the workplace . {sent} it is not surprising that people have been misled a little when you read the purpose of the bill . {sent} it says : {sent} we have no concern regarding that purpose as stated . {sent} the point is that the bill does not do any of that . {sent} it fails to meet this purpose , this goal , this objective . {sent} it falls far short . {sent} i am sure you would take my word for it but you do not have to . {sent} you can take the word of suzanne boivin of the national association of women and the law . {sent} she says : {sent} nothing will change . {sent} unfortunately , it is simply wishful thinking . {sent} the inuit of canada say that , for aboriginal peoples : {sent} bill c-62 is of limited value . {sent} beryl potter of the coalition on employment equity for disabled persons had this to say : {sent} like the bill -- it 's not even worth the paper it 's written on -- i 've never been so disillusioned in my life as i am with prime minister mulroney . {sent} i was a supporter of him . {sent} i worked for him in his campaign and i am totally , totally disillusioned . {sent} i will not read the words of the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) on this issue in the election campaign of 1984 . {sent} he has failed to deliver . {sent} i would not want to spend too much time pointing that out because i suspect everyone is well aware of it anyway . {sent} in a previous career i had an opportunity to work with the disabled , young native people , and those who would be classified as visible minorities in an attempt to find employment opportunities for them . {sent} i suppose i should include women in that as well , but my main experience was with those groups i mentioned . {sent} of course they all included women . {sent} that was not many years ago . {sent} then we went through that process the next day and the same people would be turned away again . {sent} yet , when they phoned me they would inevitably say , `` mr. riis , i am not prejudiced . {sent} quite frankly , that is a racist attitude . {sent} it is discrimination . {sent} it indicates prejudice . {sent} therefore , when i look at the provisions in this bill and see what it is attempting to accomplish , it hits very close to my heart . {sent} it reminds me of a very close personal experience that occurred to me for a number of years . {sent} however , once one had an opportunity to examine this bill and hear the witnesses who came to speak to the committee about this bill , it became obvious that it was rife with flaws and filled with inconsistencies . {sent} it was simply an inappropriate piece of legislation . {sent} one might ask why it is inappropriate . {sent} one of the shortcomings is that there is no mandatory equity , no enforcement and no real penalties . {sent} this legislation must be viewed as voluntary equity with mandatory reporting of workforce data . {sent} those businesses over a certain size that carry out transactions with the federal government over a certain amount must submit an action program . {sent} although the employer must draft an action plan , there is no requirement that the employer must fulfil that plan or necessarily introduce it . {sent} however , there is a penalty pursuant to clause 6 , with a maximum summary conviction of $ 50,000 , if the employer fails to act . {sent} we in the new democratic party attempted to make this penalty realistic . {sent} heather reisman , who works with the nesbitt consulting group which provides advice to these firms which are interested or essentially forced to introduce a program of equity in the workplace on paper , said about the penalty : `` it 's squat '' . {sent} the effectiveness of the maximum $ 50,000 fine for failing to report workforce data annually is something that she says a large company will simply write off as a cost of doing business . {sent} fifty thousand dollars is irrelevant to a corporation of the size essentially contemplated by this bill . {sent} she says that it is `` squat '' . {sent} there really is no effective penalty for making no progress . {sent} it is somewhat pollyannish and naive to believe that employers throughout canada will implement equity programs for their employers that will require them to hire people whom obviously they are not interested in hiring . {sent} nevertheless , that is the purpose of this bill . {sent} these action plans were not included in the original bill . {sent} indeed , the minister claimed before the committee that an action plan was inherent for the company introducing equity . {sent} in a sense , the government itself did not consider that an action plan ought to be part of the bill . {sent} it is an example of how this bill has not been clearly thought through and needs to go back to committee for reconsideration . {sent} after all , we are theoretically launching a major new initiative for canada . {sent} we are giving the impression that employment equity will become a reality in our country , but the fact is that it will not happen . {sent} while some enforcement is needed , in order for these legislative requirements to work it is necessary to have the general support of the people . {sent} the fact is that the initiatives in bill c-62 simply will not accomplish that . {sent} i want to comment on equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} on many occasions members of the government turned aside attempts to include in the bill a reference to equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} we attempted to introduce that equal pay provision without success . {sent} the government argued time and again that the presence of equal pay in the canadian human rights act as it stands is good enough . {sent} however , that is not the case . {sent} judge rosalie abella is perhaps one of the most knowledgeable people in this area . {sent} the clause on contract compliance is a major weakness in the bill . {sent} in 1982-83 , the department of supply and services alone signed with federal firms literally over 333,000 contracts worth $ 5 billion . {sent} such a major undertaking in terms of government business begs the question : what is the nature of the government 's contract compliance policy ? {sent} it applies only to firms with 100 or more employees and only if the value of the contract exceeds $ 200,000 . {sent} the only obligation on the contractor is simply to implement equity in the workplace . {sent} failure to do so does not mean a loss of a contract , although such firm may be removed from the competition for future contracts . {sent} the firm `` may '' be removed . {sent} there is either a commitment in law or there is not . {sent} the fact that a company may not do further business with the government if it does not comply indicates that this is a rather limp wristed , milque-toast approach to the whole matter . {sent} the government 's compliance policy does not require a contractor to file a report on workforce data as is required by those firms that come under bill c-62 . {sent} these are hardly owners' requirements and certainly are far inferior to the demands made upon firms contracting in the united states . {sent} the approach in the united states is quite different and much more serious than the one reflected in bill c-62 . {sent} in conclusion let me say that our party has five concerns . {sent} first , there is the absence of real enforcement and adequate penalties under mandatory equity schemes . {sent} second , there is no reference in the bill to equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} third , no contract compliance is included . {sent} fourth , there is no obligation to negotiate equity where there is a bargaining unit . {sent} perhaps , most important , the coverage of the bill is inadequate in that it does not include federal departments . {sent} if we are serious about asking people to take this bill seriously , then surely its provisions should be extended to include those people , including federal departments . {sent} mr. speaker : are there questions or comments ? {sent} the hon. member for notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ( mr. allmand ) . {sent} he mentioned the fact that sometimes they ran up against this systemic discrimination . {sent} based on the hon. member 's experience , what does he think about the attempt to deal with this matter through voluntary enforcement ? {sent} the government does not seem to give us an answer to the question . {sent} however , when the minister spoke on monday , she said : {sent} the government is committed to ensuring that employment equity becomes a reality . {sent} we intend to knock on the doors of employers who do not meet their responsibilities . {sent} i can tell you , mr. speaker , that we will be knocking with a firm fist . {sent} it seems to me that if this were an enforceable bill for employment equity then the poor minister , or members of her caucus , would not have to go around knocking on doors . {sent} so she admits in her speech that this is not really an enforceable employment equity bill . {sent} it is one in which , through the publication of information , the government hopes that there will be voluntary compliance . {sent} can the hon. member tell us from his experience with what he was trying to do in british columbia whether that really worked ? {sent} or do we need bills with teeth in them under which charges can be laid and offenders prosecuted when there is not the employment equity which we all seek ? {sent} mr. riis : mr. speaker , i thank the hon. member for his thoughtful question . {sent} no , i do not think for a moment that voluntary compliance will work . {sent} i think that a bill without teeth is simply not worth the paper upon which it is written . {sent} quite frankly , i do not want to be part of any bill which requires the poor minister responsible to go out across canada banging on doors . {sent} i hope she has something better to do with her time . {sent} if she is serious about providing employment opportunities for disadvantaged groups , then she should do it through this bill . {sent} from her comments it seems as if she really does not believe that this will be an effective bill . {sent} she is already looking forward to going out door-knocking , although it is probably not the type of door-knocking she was anticipating . {sent} mr. speaker : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} mr. speaker : the question is on the amendment . {sent} ms. copps , seconded by mr. rossi , moved : {sent} that the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word `` that '' and substituting the following therefor : {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the amendment ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} mr. speaker : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} mr. speaker : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} mr. speaker : in my opinion the nays have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} mr. speaker : call in the members . {sent} the house divided on the amendment ( ms. copps ) , which was negatived on the following division : {sent} 40 {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : i declare the amendment lost . {sent} is the house ready for the next question ? {sent} i will recognize the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) . {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i welcome this opportunity -- {sent} adjournment debate {sent} proceedings on adjournment motion {sent} a motion to adjourn the house under standing order 66 deemed to have been moved . {sent} mr. keith penner ( cochrane -- superior ) : mr. speaker , would you call the house to order , please ? {sent} mr. penner : mr. speaker , i draw to the attention of the house that under the previous administration , a $ 345 million native economic development program was established . {sent} that amount was to be expended over a four-year period , beginning in april of 1984 . {sent} the program was directed at the development of native-owned businesses , including individual entrepreneurs , corporations , and community-based businesses . {sent} i would like to remind the house that in their struggle to have aboriginal rights recognized and implemented , native people have had to focus an inordinate amount of time on the political process . {sent} as a result , there are a large number of very competent , articulate and successful political leaders in the native community . {sent} as a matter of fact , we in this house of commons could learn a lot about political leadership by looking at the very able political leaders in the native community and recognizing their talents and skills . {sent} an increasing number of native people are turning to the study of law as a result . {sent} their accomplishments in that field are many . {sent} however , it is in the field of economic development where bold new action is required . {sent} hence the reason for the native economic development program . {sent} it was designed to help native people break through the poverty barrier and open the way for full participation in the business life of this nation . {sent} my concern is that i detect a distinct lack of commitment by this government to that avenue of endeavour . {sent} my evidence is no less a source than that despised nielsen task force report on natives and indians , the so-called buffalo jump report . {sent} in the year 1985-86 , $ 122.1 million was approved by parliament with a strong conservative majority . {sent} nevertheless , in the last fiscal year the minister allowed $ 90 million of that to lapse . {sent} it seems to me the government wants to bury the native economic development program . {sent} i find it difficult to blame the minister of state for small businesses ( mr. bissonnette ) because i know that his orders come from the minister of regional industrial expansion ( mr. stevens ) . {sent} having been associated with that minister for a long time , we know his ultra-conservative and archaic philosophy could never support such a program . {sent} we also know that the deputy prime minister ( mr. nielsen ) is no friend and ally of the native economic development program . {sent} in fact , he was instrumental in having turned down the very promising yukon indian development corporation project . {sent} i conclude very simply and quickly by asking why the government does not admit that it wants to kill this program just as it did katimavik ? {sent} why not be forthright and say so ? {sent} do not let the native people of this country go on believing there is such a program when it does not exist . {sent} so far there have been 900 proposals under this program . {sent} the applicants have been disappointed and frustrated by delays , postponements and , finally , turn-downs in most cases . {sent} economic development is not a priority with the department of indian affairs . {sent} only 4 per cent of its budget is directed to that avenue , and most of that money is diverted elsewhere . {sent} therefore , we need the native economic development program . {sent} the government has failed to recognize that , failed to respond to it , and i argue that in doing so it has made a gross error . {sent} first of all , i can give the house the assurance that the conservative government is working very hard to safeguard the economic and social interests of canada 's native peoples . {sent} the native community is aware of the native economic development program and it uses it . {sent} this is borne out by the fact that more than 900 project applications were submitted , and out of that number , unlike the erroneous figures you had , 145 were approved , representing a value of $ 59.3 million . {sent} the program is very popular with our native people , no doubt about that . {sent} this funding has not been affected by budgetary cutbacks . {sent} the nedp plays a very important role in native economic development . {sent} it is the only program that is specifically aimed at developing the economic independence of native people . {sent} it has been estimated that this $ 2.6 billion federal contribution to the saskatchewan indian loan company has generated more than $ 46 million of new investments in the provincial agricultural economy . {sent} the same might be said about the association of reserves for improving social economics which was given $ 1.3 million . {sent} thanks to this contribution , it is expected that 100 new businesses and 400 new permanent jobs will be created in the next few years . {sent} mr. speaker , these propositions are perfect examples of the dynamic and creative force of native people . {sent} they also emphasize the importance of the program 's effective assistance to the native people of canada . {sent} mr. ernie epp ( thunder bay -- nipigon ) : mr. speaker , on november 18 , i addressed several questions to the minister of state for multiculturalism ( mr. jelinek ) . {sent} these questions reflected my understanding that the multiculturalism sector was working on a white paper on multicultural policy but that this work had been given up under the instructions of the minister . {sent} the answers that i received did not really clarify that question , and that is why i asked to have a further opportunity to debate the matter . {sent} now , more than five months later , it is even more appropriate to ask what the government 's multiculturalism policy is . {sent} those are the words of the minister aimed at bringing ethnic minorities out of , as he said , `` ethno-cultural corners '' and into the economic mainstream of canada . {sent} he declared that the policy was in the final stages of preparation for cabinet . {sent} he then went on to suggest , without any doubt about what the result would be , that he was not going to cabinet for additional funds . {sent} given that he was talking about re-orienting spending , he said that it would be a redirection of existing funds . {sent} there is no doubt that some organizations will be cut out . {sent} he went on to say that the organizations might be involved in the retention of culture and that henceforth there was no question that their grants would have to be an investment in canada . {sent} he concluded by stating : {sent} across the country there is the most intense unease about what the minister has in mind . {sent} thus i address this question . {sent} surely what was needed was a white paper on multiculturalism in the terms suggested in my question of november 18 . {sent} surely it was necessary for the intentions of the minister to be laid out . {sent} it is necessary for him to turn back to the ethno-cultural communities , since he clarified a need for redirection , in order to publish a paper to which they can react . {sent} some of the strongest reactions to this move have come from groups in the province of manitoba . {sent} they feel left out of the process . {sent} they feel neglected and rejected by the minister . {sent} two days before i asked this question in the house he met with executive members of the manitoba intercultural council . {sent} he promised them there would be no change in multicultural policy without full consultation . {sent} they were promised that there would be full consultation . {sent} it is not surprising that in manitoba and in alberta there is unease with what is happening . {sent} i spoke to a leader of the urkrainian-canadian community in alberta late last week and he expressed his unease . {sent} he was convinced that this was a play to the city of toronto and groups in toronto , particularly to business groups . {sent} we might think that the first concern would be with respect to those organizations involved with multicultural retention . {sent} in many cases , those might be groups of european origin . {sent} these people are convinced that the minister may forget their needs and not fund them adequately . {sent} they deeply resent the suggestion that he has been spoon-feeding them when , in fact , they have received precious little money . {sent} they now see the limited funds upon which they have depended in the past to stimulate their efforts being lost to them as the government turns to other business-oriented efforts . {sent} today it is my duty and pleasure to respond for the first time in my new capacity as parliamentary secretary to the minister of state ( multiculturalism ) . {sent} the minister has no intention of making a policy shift , as the hon. member has suggested . {sent} quite the opposite , we want to make an improvement and an up-date as this paper and the proceedures of the department go back to 1971 . {sent} there have been many changes since 1971 , mr. speaker . {sent} the only thing that is still the same is that the grass is still green . {sent} there may be serious grounds for improvement , but always in consultation . {sent} from what i have seen of my minister , this is what he is now doing and he has travelled throughout canada . {sent} however , there will probably be some change . {sent} i remember this quite well , mr. speaker , as it was my birthday . {sent} this is what he has done , perhaps not completely , but it has been done . {sent} however , i trust that our minister will continue to consult , and what we all want him to do is to consult and improve this proposal . {sent} canadian broadcasting corporation -- incorrect reporting of gas prices alleged {sent} of course , this resulted in a very inaccurate statement of the comparison between canadian and american gas prices . {sent} this is but one example of inaccurate and biased reporting by the cbc . {sent} i have had some correspondence with mr. david spanjer of elliotwood court in my riding of don valley east . {sent} mr. spanjer has devoted much time to analysing the content of cbc radio programming , and he feels that the coverage provided is not balanced . {sent} he wrote : {sent} i have no quarrel with this if the reporting of the news , the choice of the discussion subjects and the selection of the persons interviewed was objective . {sent} unfortunately , exactly the opposite is the case -- {sent} mr. spanjer has written to the cbc on several occasions and has been very frustrated by the response he has received . {sent} also he wrote : {sent} as a taxpayer i believe i have the right to response to any reasonable request for information and a reply to any complaint that is properly documented . {sent} what in fact has happened is that the cbc has stalled for almost a year . {sent} this is no way for a publicly owned corporation to treat one of its consumers and in effect one of its shareholders . {sent} the parliamentary secretary in his response to my question pointed out that programming and content were the direct responsibility of cbc management and its board of directors . {sent} i appreciate the independence of the cbc and the need for its independence . {sent} however , it is no justification for inaccurate and biased reporting . {sent} this is clearly unacceptable to most canadians . {sent} on april 3 , the president of the cbc , pierre juneau , announced the following : {sent} although the cbc received an increase in its parliamentary appropriations and although the corporation anticipates an increase in advertising revenue , this still leaves the cbc with a $ 48 million shortfall in 1986-87 . {sent} he continued : {sent} this year the corporation has not been able to avoid cuts in programming . {sent} even the reductions in administrative and support expenditures will have an impact on programming and distribution services . {sent} the cbc will eliminate 122 hours of network tv programming -- 77 hours of english language tv and 45 hours of french language tv . {sent} several programs , such as this land and cblt morning in toronto , have been dropped . {sent} others have had their schedules curtailed . {sent} the article in maclean 's also indicated that the cbc earned more than $ 33 million in unexpected advertising revenue in 1985-86 which the corporation was permitted to keep . {sent} the article also pointed out that the government was giving the corporation an increase of $ 22 million or 2.1 per cent for 1986-87 operations and capital expenditures . {sent} the main estimates of the government predict a $ 55 million increase in cbc advertising revenue . {sent} perhaps that sends out a message about the quality of programming . {sent} this effort to sell canadian programming abroad is hardly consistent with the cut-backs in canadian programming . {sent} not only are examples cited of biased and inaccurate reporting , but of biased and inappropriate spending practices as well . {sent} cut-backs of any sort are difficult . {sent} i have had that experience in my own business career . {sent} however , it appears that the canadian broadcasting corporation needs to re-examine its priorities in terms of its mandate . {sent} it needs to get at the structure , the number of senior vice-presidents , the number of vice-presidents and perhaps even to merge departments . {sent} the provision of balanced and accurate news and original canadian programming is a vital duty of the cbc . {sent} it should also be managed according to sound business principles and practices . {sent} mr. jim edwards ( parliamentary secretary to minister of communications ) : mr. speaker , the issue of balanced coverage in our broadcast media is important to all canadians . {sent} the free flow of information is vital to the functioning of democracy . {sent} i can well appreciate , therefore , the hon. member 's concern about the item on gas prices broadcast by the cbc which was aired on the national on march 7 . {sent} as i stated on march 21 , broadcasters themselves are responsible for program selection and content , subject to the general rules and regulations of the crtc . {sent} thus responsibility for cbc programming matters lies entirely with the cbc 's management and board of directors . {sent} i will be forwarding to the hon. member a copy of the full text of that response , but i would like at this time , with your permission , sir , to provide a brief summary of it . {sent} according to the cbc , the report in question was reviewed by senior tv news personnel and they found it to be fair and balanced over all . {sent} the cbc has an internationally recognized reputation for the quality of its news and public affairs reporting . {sent} that is why section 3(g) of the act , which sets out cbc 's mandate , begins by stating that the cbc should : {sent} -- be a balanced service of information , enlightenment and entertainment for people of different ages , interests and tastes covering the whole range of programming in fair proportion . {sent} i am certain , mr. speaker , that these provisions of the broadcasting act have proven generally very useful and that the broadcasters have faithfully lived up to their responsibilities . {sent} the corporation has examined this report and prepared a detailed answer in which it recognizes the mistake and expresses its regret . {sent} in my opinion , mr. speaker , the reply of the cbc in this case shows how conscienciously the corporation takes its responsibilities as a public broadcaster . {sent} the acting speaker ( mr. paproski ) : the motion to adjourn the house is now deemed to have been adopted . {sent} accordingly this house stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 p.m. , pursuant to standing order 3(1) . {sent} the house adjourned at 6:34 p.m. {sent} s.o. 21 {sent} house of commons {sent} wednesday , april 23 , 1986 {sent} the house met at 2 p.m. {sent} statements pursuant to s.o. 21 {sent} expo 86 {sent} distribution of tickets to politicians {sent} the new democrats and the liberals are splitting four tickets between them . {sent} expo is going to be a great national festival . {sent} for the government to convert this into a political extravaganza rather than a national and provincial festival is directly contrary to the unanimity with which people from all three political parties are approaching this particular event . {sent} i call upon the government to take politics out of expo , give it back to the people , and give it back to members of parliament across the board . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} multiculturalism {sent} criticism of government policy {sent} mr. ernie epp ( thunder bay -- nipigon ) : mr. speaker , multicultural organizations across canada are outraged by recent actions of the minister of state for multiculturalism ( mr. jelinek ) . {sent} these organizations have provided input to the government more than once recently on the direction they would like multicultural policy to take . {sent} they have indicated shortcomings in government action on the policy and have asked for more support for their own community acitivities . {sent} while these groups waited for the opportunity to discuss these policy matters , they were suddenly told that the minister was developing a totally new multiculturalism policy which was in the final stages of preparation for cabinet consideration . {sent} the minister did not ask for advice on this determination . {sent} he did not invite reaction to a draft statement . {sent} the members of our ethnocultural organizations and communities deserve a better lesson in parliamentary government than the minister has provided . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} abortion {sent} therapeutic abortion committees' approval procedures {sent} mr. jim jepson ( london east ) : mr. speaker , the death of a young ottawa woman on january 23 , 1986 , while undergoing a therapeutic abortion , has confirmed what everyone suspected . {sent} in many cases therapeutic abortion committees are no more than a rubber stamp . {sent} the committee routinely approves 40 abortion applications at its weekly meetings which last only 20 minutes . {sent} that gives about 30 seconds to the consideration of each case . {sent} these factors should also influence the decision of a committee on an application for abortion . {sent} this does not happen now , and the entire committee process is a meaningless farce . {sent} i urge hon. members of the house seriously to consider changing our laws -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} historic events {sent} anniversary of armenian massacre {sent} mr. john oostrom ( willowdale ) : mr. speaker , 1986 will mark the seventy-first anniversary of the massacre of over 1.5 million armenians -- men , women , and children . {sent} the latest text of the united nations' committee report on genocide lists the massacre of the armenians alongside such horrors as what the nazis did to the jews . {sent} in 1982 the government of canada , the champion of human rights , passed a resolution condemning the armenian massacre . {sent} on april 24 armenians all over the world will be holding a silent vigil to commemorate the martyrs of the genocide . {sent} let us all pause and reflect upon the armenian experience . {sent} the commemoration of this day will serve as a warning signal against other similar atrocities . {sent} no act of human destruction of such great magnitude can be prevented if we permit one to be forgotten . {sent} tomorrow , and every april 24 hence , should be remembered as armenian memorial day , for nothing threatens our future more than a refusal -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} unemployment insurance {sent} government 's decision to cut benefits -- citizens' opposition {sent} mr. jean-claude malépart ( montreal -- sainte-marie ) : last week , mr. speaker , i was in the ridings of trois-rivières and champlain . {sent} yesterday i went to the riding of saint-hyacinthe -- bagot and visited montreal 's salon de la femme . {sent} mr. speaker , the people are increasingly angry with the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) . {sent} he was booed in his own riding . {sent} the representatives of the members for trois-rivières and champlain were booed in these ridings . {sent} the absent member for saint-hyacinthe -- bagot ( mrs. champagne ) was booed in her riding . {sent} multiculturalism {sent} importance of ethnic and cultural minorities {sent} mrs. carole jacques ( montreal -- mercier ) : mr. speaker , today i pay homage to distinguished guests and to businessmen of my riding 's italian community . {sent} mr. speaker , we are growing ever more aware of the leading role played by cultural and ethnic minorities in canada 's economic growth . {sent} our government provides the ideal climate for them to contribute to our country 's economic expansion . {sent} in addition , mr. speaker , the standing committee on multiculturalism to which i belong has been established to foster and monitor the canada-wide implementation of federal multiculturalism policies . {sent} [ editor 's note : the hon. member expressed her best wishes to the businessmen in italian . ] {sent} housing {sent} residential rehabilitation assistance program -- application refusals in winnipeg {sent} mr. david orlikow ( winnipeg north ) : mr. speaker , residents of winnipeg are angry at the way in which the residential rehabilitation assistance program has been unilaterally altered by the minister responsible for housing . {sent} this program has been responsible for regenerating entire neighbourhoods in winnipeg . {sent} without it and the core intiatives program , parts of downtown winnipeg could have gone the way of central cities in the united states . {sent} last year 1,200 homes were rehabilitated under these programs . {sent} this year no money has been released as yet . {sent} a quarter of the year is thus gone . {sent} people with applications dating back as long as two years have been cut off . {sent} forty completed and processed applications , just awaiting cmhc signature , have been turned down . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} sixty seconds . {sent} shipbuilding {sent} needs of industry in british columbia {sent} now , however , is the time to focus our attention on the urgent needs of the shipbuilding industry in british columbia . {sent} now is the time to proceed with construction of the promised class 8 arctic icebreaker . {sent} the icebreaker will provide important logistic support , and protection of canadian sovereignty in arctic waters . {sent} it must incorporate the most up to date technology , be efficient , and be built at reasonable cost . {sent} human rights {sent} mr. jack shields ( athabasca ) : mr. speaker , dr. vladimir brodsky is a russian physician who has been sentenced to three years in a labour camp for malicious hooliganism . {sent} the kgb has offered dr. brodsky his freedom if he renounces an independent peace group he helped establish in 1982 . {sent} this doctor is guilty of working for peace through association with `` the group to establish trust between the u.s.a. and the u.s.s.r. '' . {sent} this case symbolizes the concern canadians have for efforts physicians in canada and other places have made to remove the threat of nuclear war . {sent} dr. brodsky 's internment relegates the status of dr. chazov and his soviet physicians for peace group to that of a russian progaganda tool . {sent} it ridicules mr. gorbachev 's peace overtures as being only gestures . {sent} political parties {sent} prince edward island -- election of liberal government {sent} mr. george henderson ( egmont ) : mr. speaker , on monday night joe ghiz and the liberals captured 21 of the 32 seats in the provincial legislative assembly . {sent} they will form the next government , and a strong government at that . {sent} the winds of change were so strong that even a premier could not hang on to his own seat . {sent} there is a clear message in this resounding victory for the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) -- canadians are fed up with conservative policies . {sent} as i travelled door-to-door with the provincial candidates , the response was the same -- the mulroney government 's policies are hurting all canadians . {sent} islanders were outraged by this government giving less and taking more . {sent} it is also quite obvious to islanders that the prime minister is not delivering on his promise to create jobs , jobs , jobs . {sent} yes , mr. speaker , the mulroney government has failed prince edward islanders . {sent} we now have a strong premier who will stand up and fight for a fair deal for all prince edward island . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} employment {sent} government 's performance {sent} mr. guy ricard ( laval ) : mr. speaker , as we all know , canada is on the road to prosperity . {sent} more canadians have jobs , more people are buying homes , and more people are seeing an improvement in their standard of living thanks to the implementation of conservative policies . {sent} and i agree with all those people who have gone back to work since the september 1984 election : `` what a relief to have a job again and to get your pay at the end of the week.1 '' {sent} we in the progressive conservative party realize that the best social program is a job , and that is why we are working so hard to create new jobs for canadians each month . {sent} political parties {sent} criticism of government back-benchers {sent} it was not long ago that a member on that same side was speaking about the need for shipbuilding on the east coast . {sent} this is another example of conservative double-speak because the conservative cabinet refuses to recognize the need on either coast . {sent} i suggest it is about time that conservative back-benchers understood that the public know that conservative back-benchers do not represent them adequately , otherwise action would have been taken by the cabinet . {sent} aviation {sent} international air show -- students' participation {sent} this impressive show is a concrete example of the vitality of canadian youth . {sent} in addition , this show is a unique opportunity for the quebec and canadian aeronautics industry to make itself known . {sent} oral questions {sent} oral question period {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- u.s. senate committee meetings {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister . {sent} trade negotiations with the united states are not yet under way , yet the matter is bogged down in the united states senate by conflict , confusion , and capitulation . {sent} we 're at the foul stage period '' . {sent} i know that you may find those words unacceptable , mr. speaker , but they were uttered in the united states senate . {sent} what backroom deals are being made by the prime minister and his government to try to keep these negotiations on track ? {sent} will he tell the canadian people what is behind these discussions ? {sent} what is going on ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the leader of the opposition clearly does not believe that kind of question himself . {sent} he makes little effort to disguise his amusement with his own questions . {sent} what is going on in the united states senate is germane to their own democratic process . {sent} the administration is following the prescribed formalities . {sent} i assume that what is taking place in the united states is their own special brand of democracy , in much the same way as question period is ours . {sent} when the response is forthcoming , the government of canada will respond . {sent} meanwhile we think it is the normal functioning of a democracy , and we will have to wait to see what comes out of the united states senate . {sent} inquiry if government made concessions in negotiations with united states {sent} right hon. john n. turner ( leader of the opposition ) : i have a supplementary , mr. speaker . {sent} it would be amusing if there were not so much at stake for canada . {sent} if the talks start from scratch , are we going to put everything on the bargaining table ? {sent} the prime minister has made a commitment to remove our cultural industries , the auto pact , marketing boards and other economic sectors from the bargaining table . {sent} has the prime minister made any concessions with respect to these restrictions , with a view to the results of the u.s. senate vote ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , as far as canada is concerned , we have submitted a program that responded to existing demands . {sent} we have conducted thorough consultations with all sectors in this country . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : mr. bourassa will be interested , as will other premiers , in what backroom deals are made to secure that consent . {sent} if there are backroom deals in the united states between the administration and the senate , there are backroom deals between this administration in canada and the provinces . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} request for parliamentary debate {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , if indeed there are negotiations i think a debate of some kind would be appropriate . {sent} first and foremost it would finally flush out where the liberals stand on this issue . {sent} no one knows where they are on any issue . {sent} they are either on both sides , or none . {sent} canadian position {sent} hon. lloyd axworthy ( winnipeg -- fort garry ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the prime minister as well . {sent} yesterday in the house he said categorically that he would never accept the u.s. senate proposals which outlined guidelines and conditions . {sent} canadian officials in washington are quoted in a cp wire story today as saying that the prime minister would not automatically refuse to negotiate under the senate proposals . {sent} what kind of two-faced game is going on ? {sent} why are canadian officials saying one thing in washington and he is saying another thing in this parliament ? {sent} right hon. brian mulroney ( prime minister ) : mr. speaker , the only two-faced game going on here is that this is one face of liberal trade policy , and over there is the other face . {sent} they are both opposite . {sent} i have indicated many times that we are looking for a clean launch without preconditions . {sent} we expect that will be the case . {sent} we hope there will be a positive -- i do not want to interrupt the right hon. leader of the opposition and the hon. member from winnipeg . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : no , keep going . {sent} mr. mulroney : is the conversation over ? {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : keep going . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : go ahead . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} perhaps just a supplementary question . {sent} mr. turner ( vancouver quadra ) : the clean launch is going under water . {sent} mr. axworthy : i always say that every time the prime minister looks in the mirror he is getting two points of view . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} statements attributed to canadian officials in washington {sent} hon. lloyd axworthy ( winnipeg -- fort garry ) : mr. speaker , the prime minister has not answered the question . {sent} we want to know what canadian officials in washington are promising or committing to on behalf of the government . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , the answer to the hon. member 's question is of course not . {sent} the prime minister of canada spoke for canada in the house of commons yesterday on this question . {sent} that position stands . {sent} canadian policy {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , i have a very simple and straightforward question for the prime minister . {sent} mr. crosbie : that 's a change . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} mr. langdon : it is possible -- {sent} mr. crosbie : first one this session . {sent} an hon. member : a simple question for a simple-minded cabinet . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the hon. member has the right to put his question . {sent} if the policy of the canadian government is to have a clean launch , why are canadian officials in washington saying the contrary ? {sent} did he authorize it ? {sent} will he stop it if it is taking place ? {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , to answer that very simple question very simply , they are not . {sent} conditions suggested by u.s. senate {sent} mr. steven w. langdon ( essex -- windsor ) : mr. speaker , having left our officials in washington to play their game while the politicians here appear to play their game , let me pose this question . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member is making a false accusation . {sent} finance {sent} introduction of sales tax credit {sent} hon. douglas c. frith ( sudbury ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the minister of finance . {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , i do not think the hon. member has looked carefully at the facts . {sent} what is very clear is that real disposable income for all canadians is up this year and will be up again next year . {sent} taxes for those who are in the lowest income brackets are going to be down this year , and he has commented on one of the reasons for that . {sent} i point out to him that mortgage rates today are at the lowest level they have been since 1978 . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} families' disposable income {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , for those most in need , taxes are lower . {sent} an hon. member : they are nowhere . {sent} mr. wilson ( etobicoke centre ) : the hon. member opposite says they are nowhere . {sent} well , i will tell you jobs are being created in many parts of the country . {sent} five hundred and eighty thousand jobs have been created , and that is because of the policies of this government . {sent} trade {sent} canada-united states negotiations -- canadian position {sent} mr. ian deans ( hamilton mountain ) : mr. speaker , my question is for the prime minister . {sent} will the prime minister rise and state categorically , unequivocally , that if there are any conditions of any kind attached to the american negotiating position in free trade , we will not take part in the negotiations ? {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the hon. member knows that is a hypothetical question . {sent} mr. deans : it is not ; it is not . {sent} mr. speaker : it is . {sent} mr. deans : it is not hypothetical . {sent} mr. speaker : the government members will come to order now , and that includes the front bench . {sent} the hon. member knows that is a hypothetical question . {sent} order , please . {sent} if he has a question on government policy i am prepared to hear it . {sent} mr. deans : mr. speaker , it has been reported repeatedly that canadian representatives and u. s. representatives in washington are speaking about a deal being worked out that has conditions attached to it in advance of the negotiations . {sent} i ask the prime minister , that being the case will he say categorically that canada will not negotiate at all unless such conditions are absolutely out of the picture ? {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , for the third time today , that allegation about activities of canadian public officials in washington is false . {sent} the prime minister stated the position of the government of canada with regard to preconditions in this house of commons yesterday . {sent} social security {sent} inquiry if family earning $ 21,000 can have same revenue loss as family earning $ 100,000 {sent} mr. jean-claude malépart ( montreal -- sainte-marie ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the right hon. prime minister . {sent} is that his kind of social justice ? {sent} however , i suggest that the hon. member also look at the assumptions underlying the projections of the council . {sent} for example , the council made the assumption , on the conclusions drawn by the hon. member , that no measure will be brought in by the government between 1986 and the end of the decade to improve the financial condition of those in lower- income groups . {sent} it also makes the assumption that there will be no increase in real earnings between 1986 and 1990 . {sent} i think most members of the house would be realistic and say that that is an assumption that cannot be substantiated . {sent} some hon. members : order . {sent} mr. epp ( provencher ) : it should also be noted that they are making the assumption that no one -- {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} mr. epp ( provencher ) : i could give more examples . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} request for explanation concerning $ 10,850 salary earners and $ 100,000 salary earners {sent} mr. jean-claude malépart ( montreal -- sainte-marie ) : mr. speaker , i have a supplementary . {sent} and i hope the prime minister will have the courage to answer these people himself . {sent} does the minister have the courage to rise in the house and say -- {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. epp ( provencher ) : i can go on , mr. speaker . {sent} for example , there is the assumption that the surtax will remain until 1990 . {sent} it also makes the assumption that the ontario taxes raised by mr. nixon and mr. peterson , are an example for all of canada and that those are reflected across the country . {sent} furthermore , no provincial surtaxes or credits are taken into account . {sent} lastly -- {sent} some hon. members : order . {sent} those are the facts . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} effects of budget {sent} mr. nelson a. riis ( kamloops -- shuswap ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of national health and welfare . {sent} in other words , certain people will gain while others will lose disposable income . {sent} is that his concept of fairness ? {sent} how can he live with that kind of budget that has been introduced by his minister of finance ? {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , i can live with a budget and an economic plan that have brought confidence back into the economy . {sent} i can live with a budget and an economic plan that have been the backbone for 580,000 new jobs , almost all of them permanent jobs . {sent} i can live with a budget and economic plan that have shown the mortgage decrease that i just reiterated . {sent} i am sure the hon. member , as finance critic , might even have the objectivity to know what some of the savings would be on a typical mortgage for an average income family . {sent} that is what i can live with . {sent} personal and corporate tax projections {sent} does he think that is fair and equitable ? {sent} it is this minister of finance who came in with the minimum tax . {sent} those members are not very enthusiastic now , after they were touting it throughout the country in the last election . {sent} it is also this minister of finance who said that he wants to bring tax reform and greater fairness to the system . {sent} those are the facts , and i wish he would start being honest about some of those issues . {sent} canadian national railways {sent} moncton rail shops {sent} mr. dave dingwall ( cape breton -- east richmond ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of finance . {sent} he will know that the government of new brunswick has commissioned an economic impact study on the possible closure of the cn shops in moncton . {sent} the loss of jobs and the social costs would be horrendous . {sent} will the minister explain to the house why he is refusing to take any positive action to protect those 1,200 jobs in the cn shops in moncton ? {sent} hon. don mazankowski ( minister of transport ) : mr. speaker , the government is not refusing to take positive action . {sent} we are working very closely with cn and others to ensure that the excess capacity within the main shop system of the cnr can be alleviated and handled in a fair and equitable manner . {sent} request for protection of jobs {sent} will he categorically agree that those 1,200 jobs will be protected and the 250 people on lay-off will be rehired ? {sent} at that time any action that may be contemplated with respect to rationalization or adjustment will be announced , and any action will be taken in a fair and equitable manner . {sent} challenge ' 86 {sent} creation of jobs for students by private sector {sent} mr. howard mccurdy ( windsor -- walkerville ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of employment and immigration . {sent} the minister challenged the private sector to create career related summer jobs for students in 1985 . {sent} according to her department 's own program evaluation , the private sector failed to deliver . {sent} hon. andrée champagne ( minister of state ( youth ) ) : mr. speaker , in 1984 , 10 per cent of jobs created for students in the summer came from the private sector . {sent} in 1985 , 32 per cent came from the private sector . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mrs. champagne ( saint-hyacinthe -- bagot ) : in 1984 effectively 12 per cent of the jobs were related to the careers for which young people were studying . {sent} in 1985 the figure is 67 per cent . {sent} in 1986 it will be even better . {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. crosbie : ask another one , howard . {sent} minister 's position {sent} career related jobs were more frequent in the non-private sector . {sent} why is she playing this game with the taxpayers and the students in respect to job creation rather than putting money into the hands of the non-private sector to create jobs for those who need them ? {sent} that is what this government is working to achieve . {sent} non-profit projects {sent} hon. warren allmand ( notre-dame-de-grâce -- lachine east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of employment and immigration and it concerns the same matter that was just raised . {sent} the quota on non-profit projects is still too inflexible under challenge ' 86 . {sent} many excellent volunteer community projects are not being funded . {sent} i can say now that the program challenge ' 86 is a runaway success . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} mr. crosbie : absolutely . {sent} mr. orlikow : the money isn't used up . {sent} miss macdonald : the fact is that we have received 58,000 proposals , the largest number of proposals which have ever come in . {sent} many of them are from the private sector and they bring with them $ 150 million more for jobs for young people this summer . {sent} mr. allmand : mr. speaker , i do not know how she knows challenge ' 86 is already a great success when it has not even started yet . {sent} an hon. member : more applications than ever . {sent} mr. darling : wake up . {sent} mr. allmand : but her evaluation program for challenge ' 85 -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} supplementary question . {sent} vancouver food bank proposal {sent} will the minister explain that ? {sent} will she not change the rules while she still has time ? {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) : once again , mr. speaker , i have to advise the hon. member that he is wrong . {sent} that proposal was approved . {sent} some hon. members : oh , oh ! {sent} employment {sent} inquiry when community futures program will come into effect in quebec {sent} mr. gabriel fontaine ( lévis ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of employment and immigration . {sent} her department has announced the community futures program . {sent} can the minister tell the house when quebecers will be able to benefit from the practical application of this program ? {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , as members of the house of commons will know , we are at the present time briefing all members on the community futures program . {sent} we will continue to do that . {sent} i can assure the hon. member and , indeed , all hon. members , that the first community to be named under the new community futures program will be announced within a couple of weeks . {sent} external affairs {sent} nicaragua -- views of united states president {sent} mr. derek blackburn ( brant ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} does the canadian government share president reagan 's view that nicaragua is part of `` the international terrorism network '' with libya and should also be dealt with by force of arms ? {sent} that is why the policy of canada has been directed along two channels . {sent} one has been the encouragement of development assistance , and the second has been the encouragement of the contadora process . {sent} that remains our policy . {sent} u.s. sponsorship of contras {sent} mr. derek blackburn ( brant ) : mr. speaker , i direct my second question to the prime minister and i hope he will reply . {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : what ? {sent} mr. riis : name one . {sent} some hon. members : shame ! {sent} mr. clark ( yellowhead ) : there are others here who want to use the influence that canada has to mount an effective world response to the causes of terrorism . {sent} the problem , as was evidenced in libya , is that the americans found themselves in a position where there was no alternative -- {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : oh , yes , there was . {sent} mr. clark ( yellowhead ) : -- but a military alternative . {sent} our challenge must be to work with our allies and friends to build alternative responses to international terrorism . {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : there is an alternative and you know what it is . {sent} petro-canada {sent} ending of volume discounts to western farmers {sent} mr. maurice foster ( algoma ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the genial minister of energy , mines and resources . {sent} what is the minister going to do about this unfair and inequitable arrangement , especially when our western farmers are facing such difficult times ? {sent} i suggest the hon. member take this issue up with the company concerned . {sent} request that minister intervene {sent} mr. maurice foster ( algoma ) : mr. speaker , the problem is that all companies , including petro-canada , operate in the same way . {sent} since that is the case , petro-canada can give some leadership . {sent} would the minister contact the president of petro-canada and ask that company to reinstate the volume discount it had given in previous years , which amounted to about eight cents per litre ? {sent} hon. pat carney ( minister of energy , mines and resources ) : mr. speaker , i will take that as representation and get back to the hon. member . {sent} customs tariff {sent} korean steel imports {sent} mr. simon de jong ( regina east ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of finance . {sent} now apparently the tribunal has found that the import of cheap korean steel is hurting ipsco and other steel operations in canada . {sent} i ask again why canada is the only country still giving the koreans preferential treatment ? {sent} and will it be terminated soon ? {sent} hon. michael wilson ( minister of finance ) : mr. speaker , i believe i have indicated to the hon. member that this matter is something which should best be dealt with by the tariff board . {sent} that is the normal process which should be followed . {sent} once that process has been completed we can then consider our options . {sent} mr. rodriguez : supplementary ? {sent} mr. speaker : supplementary question , the hon. member for nickel belt . {sent} prime minister 's forthcoming visit to south korea {sent} mr. john r. rodriguez ( nickel belt ) : thank you very much , mr. speaker . {sent} my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} mr. darling : that 's supplementary to what ? {sent} mr. hnatyshyn : that is about as supplementary as -- {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} it is very difficult to find that a supplementary question to the first question . {sent} mr. rodriguez : mr. speaker , i am sorry , that is a supplementary question . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} mr. rodriguez : that is a supplementary question . {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} mr. rodriguez : that is a supplementary question . {sent} mr. speaker : order . {sent} the hon. member for nickel belt -- {sent} mr. rodriguez : that is a supplementary question , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. speaker : not in my view . {sent} the hon. member for gatineau . {sent} mr. rodriguez : that is a supplementary . {sent} no , that is a supplementary . {sent} mr. speaker : the hon. member for nickel belt will resume his seat . {sent} mr. rodriguez : my colleague has referred to what seems to be preferential treatment for south korean steel and i am asking the prime minister about -- {sent} mr. speaker : i give the hon. member for nickel belt my last warning . {sent} mr. rodriguez : -- his visit to south korea and the support of this government for south korean steel . {sent} that is what i am asking . {sent} some hon. members : out . {sent} out . {sent} mr. speaker : i am forced to name the hon. member for nickel belt . {sent} he is required to leave . {sent} some hon. members : out , out . {sent} mr. rodriguez : he knows i am right . {sent} mr. speaker : i am required to name the hon. member for nickel belt . {sent} i must ask him to leave . {sent} mr. rodriguez : he knows i am right . {sent} some hon. members : out . {sent} mr. rodriguez : he knows i am right . {sent} mr. de jong : the great korean connection . {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : `` the manchurian candidate '' . {sent} and mr. rodriguez having withdrawn : {sent} mr. speaker : the hon. member for york west . {sent} immigration {sent} russian army defectors in afghanistan {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of state for immigration . {sent} can the minister confirm that his department issued or was in the process of issuing ministerial permits ? {sent} and if so , why are those six individuals not here now ? {sent} who vetoed his order ? {sent} certainly we on this side of the house want to do everything we can to bring those pows from captivity to freedom . {sent} i would hope there would be some understanding this time within the liberal party of the sensitivity of this kind of operation , and that we would have co-operation on the floor of this house . {sent} mr. marchi : mr. speaker , there is growing evidence that there is clear political interference by the minister of state for external affairs . {sent} alleged ministerial correspondence {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : i will direct my second question to the minister of state for immigration . {sent} and will he table that letter so we can find out the truth ? {sent} voluntary organizations {sent} financing of charitable organizations {sent} mrs. claudy mailly ( gatineau ) : mr. speaker , i should like to put a question to the minister of finance . {sent} this being national volunteer week , can the minister tell us the status of discussions with the national volunteer organization concerning the funding of charitable organizations ? {sent} these discussions will continue . {sent} that is a matter that is best dealt with in a budget . {sent} i would expect that there will be something that we could discuss at the time of the next budget . {sent} trade {sent} syrian grain market -- protection of canadian farmers {sent} mr. rod murphy ( churchill ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} the prime minister has indicated that he and the government are going to make representations to the government of the united states to protect the interests of canadian grain growers with regard to markets that are traditionally ours in syria . {sent} i should add that we do not intend to limit our action to the protection of canadian grain markets in syria . {sent} we are going to protect traditional canadian grain markets anywhere in the world where they are threatened . {sent} government position {sent} mr. rod murphy ( churchill ) : mr. speaker , the minister knows that the bicep program is being used now to take away our traditional market . {sent} what action has the government taken to protect that very important canadian market ? {sent} canada has begun at the oecd to raise strong warnings about the dangers that provides for canadian producers , and indeed for producers in the third world . {sent} pharmaceutical industry {sent} views of provincial health ministers {sent} my question is directed to the minister of consumer and corporate affairs . {sent} is the minister aware of this opposition by provincial health ministers , or is this just another example of the government 's lack of consultation ? {sent} hon. jake epp ( minister of national health and welfare ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member should know that there is not a lack of consultation . {sent} not many months ago the argument was that we should quit consulting and start taking decisions . {sent} now it is the other way . {sent} i would like to tell the hon. member that i will be meeting with the health ministers on april 28 . {sent} content of proposed legislation {sent} since the health ministers of the provinces are opposed to this legislation , will the minister now admit that the legislation just will not wash ? {sent} i think my relations with provincial health ministers are pretty good . {sent} on april 28 i will discuss this or any other issues they wish to raise with me . {sent} nuclear armaments {sent} accidents on u.s. naval vessels {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the secretary of state for external affairs . {sent} an hon. member : ask your seatmate , the hon. member for yorkton -- melville . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , i am prepared , of course , on this matter to defer to my temporary seatmate . {sent} mr. mulroney : welcome aboard ! {sent} some hon. members : hear , hear ! {sent} mr. clark ( yellowhead ) : the practice of the canadian government will conform with canadian law respecting access to information . {sent} if the hon. member wishes to make an application under that law , i can assure him i will facilitate a response to it . {sent} visits to vancouver {sent} mr. jim fulton ( skeena ) : mr. speaker , of course i have already applied under the freedom of information legislation . {sent} my supplementary question is directed to the prime minister . {sent} as the prime minister is probably aware , vancouver has voted itself a nuclear weapons free zone . {sent} right hon. joe clark ( secretary of state for external affairs ) : mr. speaker , the hon. member for skeena has been away from his province for too long . {sent} i can confirm that not only is downtown vancouver in this country but it is in the heart of the preoccupation of the government . {sent} that is one of the policies to which we are committed as an ally . {sent} tourism {sent} canadian pavilion at epcot centre {sent} mrs. mary collins ( capilano ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of tourism . {sent} he and i have received many complaints about the canadian pavilion at the epcot centre at disney world in florida . {sent} it certainly does not reflect accurately our country or our people . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} hon. jack murta ( minister of state ( tourism ) ) : mr. speaker , it just so happens that we do have jurisdiction for that particular part of the country . {sent} my officials and the officials of disney productions met on april 10 . {sent} unemployment insurance {sent} consequences of change in regulations -- request for clarification concerning announcement {sent} mr. alfonso gagliano ( saint-léonard -- anjou ) : mr. speaker , my question is directed to the minister of employment and immigration . {sent} on several occasions the minister stated in this house that she had given ample notice of the consequences of regulations on unemployment insurance and pension income . {sent} could she explain why unemployment insurance offices were so advised by telex on december 30 , 1985 and not before ? {sent} claimants then receiving pension income from previous employment will have this pension income taken into account for ui purposes only after that date . '' {sent} minister 's attitude {sent} also it was discussed widely across the country . {sent} i can assure -- {sent} mr. deans : how many members accepted it ? {sent} i can assure him that he and many others in the house raised the issue on a number of occasions so that it was widely know . {sent} i cannot say that everyone accepted it , no . {sent} privilege {sent} privilege {sent} challenge ' 86 -- funding of vancouver food bank {sent} we have just received a telephone call from vancouver during which those responsible said that they had no knowledge whatsoever of being funded under that program . {sent} is the minister now announcing approval for the program in the house of commons when we ask questions ? {sent} hon. flora macdonald ( minister of employment and immigration ) : mr. speaker , i would be pleased to comment on this . {sent} approvals come from my office , and i want to make sure the hon. member knows that i indeed approved that project . {sent} mr. speaker : there is no point of order or question of privilege . {sent} terrorism -- statement of minister {sent} i should like to know the implication of that answer . {sent} was he referring to me as using terrorism ? {sent} was he referring to any members of my caucus as involved in or using terrorism ? {sent} was he referring to members of the other opposition party ? {sent} to whom was he referring ? {sent} it was a very serious statement . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} the hon. member knows full well that that is not a question of privilege . {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : mr. speaker , it impinges upon privileges . {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} there conceivably could be an arguable point of order , but it is certainly not a question of privilege . {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : i will do it on a point of order , then . {sent} mr. speaker : i let the hon. member finish because i took it that he was raising what in fact was a point of order . {sent} no reference was made to any member to my knowledge . {sent} i listened . {sent} mr. blaikie : check the `` blues '' . {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : with due respect , mr. speaker , when a minister of the crown -- {sent} mr. speaker : order , please . {sent} is the hon. member asking me to check the `` blues '' to determine whether in fact there was unparliamentary use of language ? {sent} mr. blackburn ( brant ) : yes , please . {sent} mr. speaker : i would be happy to do so . {sent} petitions {sent} routine proceedings {sent} petitions {sent} government response {sent} interparliamentary delegations {sent} interparliamentary delegations {sent} presentation of fourth report of canadian-nato parliamentary association {sent} committee report {sent} private members' business {sent} presentation of first report of standing committee {sent} order paper questions {sent} question on the order paper {sent} ( questions answered orally are indicated by an asterisk . ) {sent} mr. doug lewis ( parliamentary secretary to president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , the following question will be answered today : no. 116 . {sent} national arts centre {sent} question no. 116 -- mr. robichaud : {sent} 1 . {sent} does the national arts centre plan to close its doors during the peak tourist season in order to compensate for the $ 1 million budgetary cuts ? {sent} 2 . {sent} was the minister of communications advised that the nac was unable to assume such cuts ? {sent} 3 . {sent} was the minister advised that in order to compensate for such cuts , the nac would have to close its doors and lose prime tourist input ? {sent} 4 . {sent} did the minister request a report and seek the advice of nac management prior to the cuts ? {sent} hon. marcel masse ( minister of communications ) : i am informed by the national arts centre as follows : {sent} 1 . {sent} in doing so , every attempt will be made to preserve both the quality and quantity of onstage programming ; so far as may be feasible , therefore , reductions in net expenditures will be effected from `` support '' services . {sent} it is not likely , however , that onstage programming will be totally unaffected . {sent} in so far as the department of communications is concerned , the reply to the above question is as follows : {sent} 2 . {sent} the minister of communications was not advised that the national arts centre was unable to sustain a budget reduction . {sent} 3 . {sent} no. {sent} 4 . {sent} the minister of communications expressed his interest , at the time , to conduct a review of the role and mandate of the national arts centre . {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , i ask that the remaining questions be allowed to stand . {sent} mr. speaker : the question enumerated by the parliamentary secretary has been answered . {sent} shall the remaining questions stand ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} motions for papers {sent} mr. doug lewis ( parliamentary secretary to president of the privy council ) : mr. speaker , i ask that all notices of motions for the production of papers be allowed to stand . {sent} mr. speaker : shall all notices of motions be allowed to stand ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} of course the bill deals with employment equity . {sent} it results from the recommendations of judge abella in her report released in november , 1984 . {sent} it has been a difficult struggle for many groups . {sent} it has been a tiring and long fight for the target groups about whom we are talking , to gain their rights . {sent} of course i am talking about native people , visible minorities , handicapped , and women . {sent} in our view there is no question that the bill must be strengthened . {sent} bill c-62 requires teeth and some real action . {sent} we are disappointed that the government has not seen fit to accept the many amendments which we proposed to strengthen the bill . {sent} there is no way we can expect movement toward full employment equity unless the federal government and parliament set an example . {sent} i remind hon. members that parliament is excluded from bill c-62 , which means the house of commons , the library of parliament , and the senate . {sent} the bill also excludes all departments and ministries which fall under the jurisdiction of the treasury board as the employer . {sent} it should have real teeth , and real enforcement of employment should be in the bill . {sent} the bill falls short of the expectations of the target groups for whom it was meant . {sent} what seems obvious to us is that it is an advance , but a timid advance . {sent} bill c-62 demonstrates again that the tories talk a good line on fairness but a type of fairness only they can see . {sent} the minister , of course , can issue guidelines . {sent} we all know that , but that is somewhat of a weak position . {sent} nothing in the bill says that she can apply them , except that she may , if she wants . {sent} the bill does not contain a clear definition of employment equity . {sent} mr. speaker , crown corporations and companies engaged in federal work must submit reports within three years . {sent} that is what it says in the bill . {sent} analyzing and consolidating this information can be done by the minister . {sent} as i said before , and i have said it several times , since 1971 parliament has adopted a number of measures . {sent} mr. speaker , i would like to mention a few statistics . {sent} in 1984 , 92,093 or 41.1 per cent were employed by the public service of canada . {sent} in 1985 , 92,800 or 41.6 per cent . {sent} we can therefore say that roughly 8 per cent of employees in management positions are women . {sent} the percentage rose slightly to 82.6 in 1984 and 82.7 in 1985 . {sent} so the rising trend is unmistakable . {sent} mr. speaker , i wanted to say that because it is important to have indicators or signs showing where we are headed with respect to employment equity . {sent} we had trouble getting them into the visitors' gallery . {sent} we all know that our elevators are difficult to operate for people with physical handicaps , for instance , people in a wheelchair . {sent} just try and press the button to call the elevator , just try not getting stuck while the doors are closing , when you are in a wheelchair . {sent} it is well nigh impossible , mr. speaker . {sent} these are things we could reasonably expect to be provided by a body system that wants all the latest technology . {sent} mr. speaker , these things do exist right here in ottawa . {sent} last night , i went to see one of my friends , roger thibault . {sent} i think this is shocking ! {sent} i hope there will now be a movement so that we in parliament will show leadership . {sent} the situation is the same in all government buildings -- physical access difficulties , mobility obstacles , and safety problems for the handicapped . {sent} mr. speaker , i would rather not spend too much time on this point because i think i have made myself very clear . {sent} we must admit there are systemic measures , systemic problems which are not necessarily planned that way but which we will have to solve . {sent} in all serenity we will have to find solutions . {sent} they demonstrate , without a doubt , that there is an imbalance , both in statistical and monetary terms . {sent} everyone knows that women earn lower average incomes . {sent} it is a fact of life . {sent} if one looked at the statistics of the public service one would see that women do not earn the same amounts as their male counterparts for performing , in most cases , similar jobs . {sent} there is nothing in bill c-62 which touches upon that important problem . {sent} disabled persons suffer from extraordinarily high unemployment rates . {sent} when they are employed , they tend to be concentrated in low paying , marginal sectors of the labour market . {sent} i do not like to say this , but it should be noted that most of the people in the public service of canada who were hired under the program to assist disabled people and to encourage the hiring of disabled people were hired in term positions . {sent} when the government lets people go , the first to be let go are usually term employees who , in many cases , are disabled people . {sent} i thought they had acquired a right to work in the public service of canada and were doing a competent job for us . {sent} native people experience a level of unemployment about five times higher than that of the nonnative population . {sent} when they are employed , it is usually in the unskilled sectors of the labour market and they have disproportionately low incomes . {sent} yesterday i referred to the difficulties which landed immigrants have in adapting to the two official languages of the country . {sent} we must review our programs of language training and we must ask the provinces to co-operate . {sent} judge abella reported on this extensively . {sent} she said that we must do something to modernize the methods and to make those courses more acceptable so that new canadians will have less difficulty advancing in the workforce . {sent} in my riding landed immigrants frequently fill the lowest paid jobs in the lowest skilled sectors . {sent} they are usually the most vulnerable because their jobs are the first to be abolished in tough times . {sent} from a purely economic point , employment equity is needed to ensure that human resources are not wasted because of discriminatory practices . {sent} a healthy economy needs the contributions of all qualified people who are willing to work and are competent . {sent} that is the only judgment we should make -- not whether they are native , handicapped , disabled , or women . {sent} if they are competent they should be allowed to compete and to obtain jobs . {sent} the exclusion of women , visible minorities , disabled people , and native people from job opportunities and benefits can only contribute to the high cost of social service programs . {sent} in conclusion , we are disappointed with the government 's refusal to amend this bill . {sent} we would like to have had included in the bill a higher penalty , and have it relate to the action plan as well as the reporting clause . {sent} we would like to have seen the penalty at $ 500,000 . {sent} we would like to have had the designated groups which speak strongly for the disabled , the native people , and women 's groups included in this bill so they would be consulted when things need to be improved . {sent} we would have liked to have had a better definition of `` reasonable accommodation '' . {sent} the prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) promised the handicapped people that he would study this issue personally . {sent} he did not study it very long or hard and he did not do a darn thing about it . {sent} we would have liked those things to have been included in the bill but , unfortunately , they are not . {sent} the bill will be accepted as it is , but it is a smoke and mirrors bill . {sent} everyone in the house accepts the principle of the bill , but its lack of teeth frustrates us . {sent} mr. nystrom : mr. speaker , the hon. member for ottawa-vanier ( mr. gauthier ) has made a good speech . {sent} his party formed the government in 1963 under mr. lester pearson with 168 seats in the house . {sent} it then came to power once again under mr. pierre trudeau . {sent} my question , therefore , is this : why did the liberal party do nothing in 20 years to ensure employment equity in canada ? {sent} a non-governmental advisory council on the status of women was established in 1973 . {sent} in 1972 , the federal government endorsed the convention of the world labour organization on equal pay for work of equal value . {sent} the liberal government also introduced an omnibus bill to ensure equal status for women in 1975 . {sent} in 1976 , we gave passage to the canadian human rights act , which forbids discrimination based on sex . {sent} afterwards , we also created the abella commission because this issue had to be examined . {sent} the abella commission was therefore established in 1983 and it presented its report in 1984 . {sent} projects and programs were set up . {sent} i am certainly not ashamed to say it . {sent} i didn't say that . {sent} i didn't say i was satisfied . {sent} i merely said , mr. speaker , that i am one of those people who believe that by doing a lot more we will get a lot further in this area and get there faster . {sent} mr. keeper : mr. speaker , i have a question for my friend . {sent} i have heard a number of liberals criticize this legislation as being unenforceable . {sent} we , too , have made that criticism and it is valid . {sent} however , is this just criticism the liberals are able to make now that they are in opposition , or is their policy one of enforceable affirmative action ? {sent} can the member tell me the liberal party policy or are they just criticizing and sitting on the fence ? {sent} mr. gauthier : mr. speaker , i know the hon. member to be a serious member and i know why he puts that question . {sent} i know exactly what he is trying to get at . {sent} i refer him to the speeches and amendments we have moved over the last little while concerning how this bill should be enforced . {sent} ndp members are good at asking questions like that , but it was very interesting to read some of the research material concerning the ndp in manitoba . {sent} in june , 1985 , the hon. member 's province of manitoba passed bill 53 , the pay equity act . {sent} mr. keeper : they also announced that since the election . {sent} mr. gauthier : that was the only initiative in many , many years . {sent} i can point to affirmative action groups starting with the handicapped . {sent} i can talk about women 's groups and francophone groups in my riding . {sent} i can talk to you about that for maybe an hour and a half or two hours . {sent} mr. de cotret : no , no ! {sent} mr. blaikie : don't threaten us then . {sent} mr. gauthier : -- the best affirmative action program we ever had was the encouragement of minority groups . {sent} one of them i can talk about is the francophones . {sent} i think i will because it is an important question . {sent} the president of the treasury board ( mr. de cotret ) is here . {sent} this morning i had a letter from the collège st. boniface saying that the treasury board decision to cut their funds for education will have a direct impact on their capacity to operate in manitoba . {sent} i could talk about tv ontario . {sent} that is affirmative action . {sent} the government is hesitant about giving it the $ 50 million it has been asking for . {sent} mr. keeper : where does the liberal party stand on employment equity ? {sent} mr. gauthier : then there is the question of newfoundland and access to the courts . {sent} is there a better affirmative action program than letting individuals go to the courts and ask that their rights be respected ? {sent} is there a better court challenges program ? {sent} yes , there is , one that works like the one we had before . {sent} this government has taken the court challenges program , under the minister of justice and the secretary of state , and has put it -- {sent} -- on the back burner , as they say . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : the hon. member for winnipeg north centre ( mr. keeper ) on a point of order . {sent} mr. keeper : i wonder if the hon. member would allow a supplementary question rather than talking it out ? {sent} mr. gauthier : i am answering your question . {sent} mr. speaker , i want to go on because this is so important . {sent} it is section 15 that will be tested in the courts , so that we will know what it means . {sent} section 23 will be tested in the courts . {sent} the hon. member 's question is a good question , mr. speaker , because it goes to the heart of the matter . {sent} how can the majority help the minority to better defend itself ? {sent} and that is why we have a problem with access to the courts financed by the majority . {sent} mr. keeper : mr. speaker , that was a great oration by my friend and i appreciate every word of it . {sent} however , he failed to say concretely and specifically where the liberal party stands today regarding enforceable affirmative action . {sent} i would like to hear him speak to that . {sent} i know he is capable of criticizing the government but is he capable of enunciating the liberal party position , or does it have a position on affirmative action ? {sent} mr. gauthier : yes , sir , we have a full policy . {sent} how much time have i got ? {sent} we are fully in accord with a positive approach to affirmative action . {sent} we have proven that over the years . {sent} mr. keeper : define `` positive '' ? {sent} mr. gauthier : it is our policy to support those who are least able to defend themselves . {sent} if the hon. member wants to know exactly what the liberal party thinks about a specific program i am willing to talk to him about that . {sent} is he talking about women ? {sent} i think our record shows we have acted in a positive manner on affirmative action for women . {sent} is he talking about the handicapped ? {sent} i can repeat what i said a few minutes ago . {sent} we had several programs . {sent} in my riding the co-op movement , which is a good movement , put up housing for the handicapped under a pilot project . {sent} that was 10 or 15 years ago . {sent} mr. keeper : what about today ? {sent} mr. gauthier : is he asking about native people ? {sent} i was parliamentary secretary to the minister of state for urban affairs in 1976-77 . {sent} i went around this country looking at native housing and saw how badly housed the native people were . {sent} i could see how hard we should try to give them what they wanted , affordable and decent housing . {sent} we did that with several programs . {sent} i can refer the hon. member to the rrap program , a sweat equity program which got an awful lot of people doing for themselves what should be done . {sent} sweat equity is what you contribute to the construction of your own house . {sent} we calculated that amount as part of the mortgage . {sent} that program , plus the neighbourhood improvement program , along with all kinds of other programs -- {sent} mr. de corneille : chip . {sent} mr. gauthier : the chip program is dead . {sent} the conservatives killed a good program . {sent} i am speaking about affordable accommodation for those with low incomes , for example . {sent} in my riding we built more social housing in 15 years than anybody else did in the ottawa area . {sent} i am very proud of that . {sent} i have got a good housing stock which we worked very hard at , and it was mainly directed at ottawa-vanier . {sent} an hon. member : what about the rest of ottawa ? {sent} mr. gauthier : the rest of ottawa does not need it because they are so rich . {sent} i represent the poorest part of ottawa , and the oldest too , but i am very proud of that . {sent} in lower town , overbrook , vanier , and all those areas , that part that was the original ottawa , was poor . {sent} it needed assistance and we went out there and gave it to them , and we did support them in their housing . {sent} thank you . {sent} message from the senate {sent} the royal assent {sent} mr. deputy speaker : i have the honour to inform the house that a communication has been received which is as follows : {sent} sir , {sent} yours sincerely , le leopold h. amyot , le secretary to the governor general {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} mr. deputy speaker : resuming debate , the hon. member for winnipeg -- birds hill ( mr. blaikie ) . {sent} it is also fair , i suppose , to note that many of these issues are issues which evolve over time , and that governments respond to the degree of social consensus that develops around issues . {sent} long before 1984 the consensus had been created that it was time for real employment equity in this country , and real affirmative action . {sent} we went so far not so long ago as to enshrine in our constitution a reference to affirmative action , which highlighted that as a mechanism for bringing about greater equality in this country . {sent} in august , 1984 the then leader of the opposition and now prime minister ( mr. mulroney ) said , and i quote : {sent} our party will ensure that companies providing services to the federal government hire increasing numbers of women to perform such services . {sent} that was offered to the canadian public by our current prime minister when he was running for office in 1984 . {sent} the result of that rhetoric , which was part of an over-all and considerably transparent election tragedy , was to promise everything to everybody . {sent} the conservatives in 1984 were going for broke . {sent} they were not going to offend anybody . {sent} if you did not want to test the cruise missile , neither did they . {sent} if you wanted to test the cruise missile , so did they . {sent} it did not matter what your position was you could find a tory who would respond positively to your feelings and to your concerns . {sent} there was an expectation with respect to this issue that the government would live up to its promises in this regard , an expectation that has been sorely violated by the reality of the legislation that we have before us . {sent} we can quote now from beryl potter of the coalition on employment equity for persons with disabilities the following statement : {sent} like the bill -- it 's not even worth the paper it 's written on -- i 've never been so disillusioned in my life as i am with prime minister mulroney . {sent} i was a supporter of him . {sent} i worked for him in his campaign and i am totally , totally disillusioned . {sent} it is not as if the conservative party was being asked to do something terribly radical . {sent} i feel , as i think others feel , that for some time we have been at a point in our social and political thinking where governments could afford to move on this without any great danger to themselves . {sent} in the final analysis , i believe the progressive conservative party was true to its own principles . {sent} a proper democratic debate could then have occurred . {sent} however , that debate has not taken place because the progressive conservative party decided in 1984 that it would not have any real debate . {sent} the conservatives were going to keep their cards close to their chests and would indicate to the public only that which it wanted it to know . {sent} we have discovered that the conservatives did not mean what they were saying , that our criticisms of the conservatives over the years have been correct . {sent} the fact is that the conservative party is not capable of acting against the wishes of the business community in this country . {sent} clearly , that is the rationale behind the weakness of the legislation before us today . {sent} that unwillingness is evident in other areas as well . {sent} that is a clear example of how the market-place is not serving ordinary canadians and their community organizations , particularly those smaller local organizations . {sent} this has not happened as a result of an international communist conspiracy . {sent} while those hon. members quite correctly point out that something should be done , they do not point out that it is the fault of a particular system . {sent} this bill is a good example of a general philosophy not to interfere in the market-place . {sent} for example , the minister of energy , mines and resources ( miss carney ) had an incredible trust in the oil industry which i do not believe has been matched by action . {sent} she assumed that as world oil prices decreased there would be a corresponding , complementary and timely reduction in energy prices at the pumps . {sent} miss carney : that is occurring . {sent} another example concerns the recent decision of the minister of state for finance ( mrs. mcdougall ) about the imasco takeover . {sent} despite many of the ramifications of this takeover , the government believes that by asking the company not to take certain action there will be no problem . {sent} similarly , it believes that by asking employers to do certain things through this bill there will be no problems . {sent} however , if the companies do not meet certain requirements of this employment equity bill there is a $ 50,000 fine in some cases . {sent} big deal ! {sent} it is quite clear that many of the companies we are concerned with are wealthy enough to regard $ 50,000 as simply the cost of doing business . {sent} employment equity is being dealt with in much the same way as the financial institutions , the oil industry and the insurance industry . {sent} furthermore , the liberals have had much the same philosophy . {sent} we were told for years not to worry about the environment . {sent} we would be told that the minister of the environment had talked to the industries involved , who volunteered to monitor themselves to ensure that they would not do anything wrong . {sent} we have seen this incredible naivety over and over again about how these institutions will behave when it comes to their own self-interest . {sent} the government has not been willing to do that . {sent} that is why this bill has been so ridiculed by the very people who had such high expectations for it . {sent} mr. roland de corneille ( eglinton -- lawrence ) : mr. speaker , i am pleased to continue debate on third reading of bill c-62 . {sent} we have been trying as hard as we can to make this a meaningful bill that would fulfil the hopes and aspirations and needs of the people it is supposed to serve . {sent} this bill is suppose to meet the needs and concerns of women , native people , the disabled and handicapped and visible minorities . {sent} there are certain tory partisans who have recently lamented the determined stand taken by the opposition to get bill c-62 amended so we can achieve its alleged purposes . {sent} these partisan tories complain because members of the opposition care about the plight of their fellow man . {sent} they lament the fact that we are making an effort here in the house to convince the government to do something to improve bill c-62 . {sent} i am proud to rise as often as i can to plead the case of those groups . {sent} i am proud that in this house of commons we can call to the attention of the government the plight of those groups to whom it made promises . {sent} over half of our population are women . {sent} we have a large number of native people . {sent} the handicapped and disabled represent approximately one eighth of the population . {sent} estimates from statistics canada tell us that one in every eight canadians is disabled . {sent} all of those who belong to minority groups , especially the visible minorities , are worth talking about . {sent} a very large part of our population seeks protection . {sent} therefore , the time we spend on this bill is not wasted if we can somehow persuade the government that there is much it can do to improve the bill . {sent} those are the alleged objectives of this bill . {sent} those partisan members of parliament who criticize our efforts to try to have the bill achieve its purpose betray their lack of genuine human compassion for those groups who wait for some move forward . {sent} i suggest that these critics should perhaps ponder the words of the great british poet , john donne who many centuries ago wrote words which ought to remind us of the importance of compassion . {sent} john donne was also the dean of st. paul 's cathedral in england . {sent} he said , and i quote : {sent} it is a basic premise of our culture and underlying civilization that we are concerned about the plight of our fellow man . {sent} there is not one person in the house of commons who can be sure that he or she will not tomorrow be part of one of those groups , if they are not already . {sent} certainly not one single hon. member , male or female , can negate the possibility that he or she may be struck down in such a way that there would be limitations , handicaps or disabilities . {sent} no one is exempt . {sent} everyone in this country can be protected and must be protected by law but this law does not protect them . {sent} everyone is a potential victim and needs this kind of protection . {sent} no one is an island unto himself and no one should feel exempt from the strictures of this concern . {sent} let us look at one important group , the disabled and handicapped . {sent} let us look at those people who have skills , who can work and who want to work but who cannot work because they cannot get work because their disabilities are viewed as being too grave . {sent} and who makes that arbitrary decision ? {sent} it is the arbitrary opinion of those who interview these disabled and those who do not even give them the opportunity to be interviewed . {sent} at the present time those people who are disabled have to live with the arbitrary opinion of an employer as to whether or not they can fit into the company 's plans . {sent} we look in vain in clause 2 for any definition of what constitutes a disabled or handicapped person . {sent} this bill is faulted . {sent} does this clause mean that the employer has only to make sure that a certain percentage of disabled persons -- which is set by the employer himself -- must be hired ? {sent} the employer can decide what constitutes disability . {sent} is that a sprained arm , a disability which is mild or is it a serious disability ? {sent} the disabled came here to find the answer . {sent} they came to the committee which discussed this bill and tried to explain that it was important for some kind of idea to be given of what is intended . {sent} more importantly , they wanted to know what is meant by the words `` reasonable accommodation '' . {sent} the bill says that designated groups will be able to have reasonable accommodation . {sent} that is the goal . {sent} we agree that one cannot set forth everything of what might be meant by `` reasonable accommodation '' as interpreted by various companies which might be involved . {sent} pathetically , of course , there are not very many companies which might be involved in this legislation in any case . {sent} this bill is a sham . {sent} the handicapped groups have asked for some kind of definition of reasonable accommodation in the legislation . {sent} an amendment was proposed with a definition so that employers would understand what the government meant by this legislation . {sent} we asked the government to include this proposal in the legislation at the request of all the groups representing handicapped people . {sent} we proposed it in committee and we again proposed it here in the house . {sent} both times the government rejected such a simple definition or guideline that would give employers the understanding of what this legislation is suppsoed to be trying to achieve . {sent} the failure of the bill to give any examples , never mind guidelines , of what is meant by reasonable accommodation is a grave flaw in the bill . {sent} one must therefore conclude that there is a lack of seriousness and sincerity in the government 's attempt to come up with legislation that will be effective . {sent} what will happen if this bill is passed ? {sent} look at it from the point of view of someone who is handicapped . {sent} the handicapped no longer want to wait . {sent} this tempting carrot has been put in front of them . {sent} they hope that we will at last bring about legislation that cares about them and responds to their needs . {sent} however , they ask how they will know that they will be able at last to get jobs . {sent} what do the handicapped find that this legislation will do for them ? {sent} clause 4 indicates that the employer is supposed to eliminate barriers to employment or promotion for the handicapped . {sent} as well , the employers are supposed to institute policies and practices to ensure that persons in the various categories will be able to have something done for them . {sent} that employers are now supposed to do that according to law does not change a thing because they are already supposed to do that . {sent} we do not need to pass a law to say that there shall be equality for all in this country because , according to our human rights legislation , that is how it stands now . {sent} it tells companies that they are supposed to treat people equally . {sent} my heavens , that is what the charter of rights and freedoms already tells employers . {sent} it already tells every employer in the country , never mind the few to which this bill refers , that they are supposed to treat people equally . {sent} this bill again tells them the same thing . {sent} how does that help the people who are disabled and handicapped ? {sent} the bill is telling employers what they already know . {sent} the proof that this bill does not work is that nothing is happening to change systemic discrimination against handicapped people . {sent} that is what judge abella said in her report and that is why she said that something must be done to eliminate systemic discrimination against , for example , the one-eighth of the population who are handicapped or disabled . {sent} if it were the case that all the government need do is pass a bill with no teeth in it and everything would be all right , then why does the government not behave that way itself ? {sent} now with the tory government cut-backs , the government will be even more prone to put the handicapped in limited and term positions . {sent} what hope is there that the government will make this law any more effective than the government 's present policies for the handicapped ? {sent} if its present policies do not serve the handicapped and the disabled , then how can they count on this law which has no teeth in it to serve them any better ? {sent} i wish i could proceed with this discussion because there are other points about clauses 5 and 6 which also indicate that this legislation lacks teeth . {sent} before i close , i wish to mention that the only provision for which a penalty is attached under this bill is the provision that an employer file a report . {sent} an employer can report anything , as long as he files a report he is okay . {sent} he will be subject to a penalty only if he does not file a report . {sent} what is the leverage of this fine ? {sent} why has the government brought this legislation forward ? {sent} it has brought it forward in order to make people think that it is doing something about employment equity . {sent} it has brought it forward to fulfil a symbolic gesture , all the while knowing that the corporate sector will know that it is a toothless and absolutely meaningless exercise . {sent} it is nothing but an exercise on the part of the tories in political cynicism and hypocrisy . {sent} mr. nystrom : mr. speaker , i have a question for my friend in the liberal party . {sent} i have before me a copy of the study of the economic council of canada entitled `` women reentering the labour force and training programs , evidence from canada '' . {sent} the hon. member made a very progressive speech ; it called for various changes . {sent} i should like to quote from the report wherein the following is indicated at page 43 : {sent} they are under-represented in the industrial training program ( in proportion to their presence in the labour force ) , and they train in predominantly female occupations . {sent} further on the same page , the following is indicated : {sent} eic should designate target occupations for training women and should develop training programs for women in these occupations jointly with employers . {sent} the target occupations should be occupations where there is a strong demand for qualified workers ; these occupations might be drawn from the ctst and the oni . {sent} the report really condemns many of the programs of the past in terms of them not really being fair to women , discriminating against women and not steering women into non-traditional occupations . {sent} why was the liberal party , which was in power over 20 years , so lax at trying to open up new job opportunities for women ? {sent} why did this discrimination continue for so many years despite the fact that the liberal party was in power ? {sent} why was the liberal party so late in realizing that women were discriminated against ? {sent} why did the liberal party not do something about it when it was in power ? {sent} i think the report is a good one in that it condemns the lack of liberal action over 20 years in terms of being fair to women . {sent} what does the hon. member have to say about that ? {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , i do not want to appear in any way as simply trying to be defensive by saying that everything the liberals have done in this regard was perfect or rosy . {sent} i ask the hon. member not to assume that that is what i am trying to say . {sent} on the other hand , it would behove my hon. friend to listen to the comments about and the examples of the impressive liberal record over the years which were made earlier . {sent} if he had listened to that review , he would have learned that it was impressive . {sent} however , i am trying to point out that we have made a logical progression in terms of the steps we have taken . {sent} it would be better if the hon. member , with only 30 members in his caucus , would concentrate on what the conservative government is doing and on its responsibilities . {sent} it would be a good idea for him to attempt to get the government to improve the legislation . {sent} however , if he wants to spend his time taking shots at the liberal party , he can do so , if that is spending his time in the best way . {sent} from my point of view he would be better advised to try to persuade the government to improve this particular piece of legislation for the sake of the people who need this help . {sent} i do not know whether he has done that in his question or comment . {sent} in any case , i am pleased that his party agrees with the official opposition that the legislation is not adequate and does not meet the alleged goals which it seeks to achieve . {sent} mr. nystrom : mr. speaker , i have a general question because i have a lot of respect for the hon. member . {sent} he is an ordained minister of the church as well . {sent} could he comment upon whether or not other organizations are doing enough to promote equity among different groups ? {sent} for example , i have often said that farm organizations should involve more women in their operations . {sent} personally i am very happy , for example , that the next president of the canadian labour congress will almost certainly be shirley carr . {sent} these are steps in the right direction . {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , the hon. member for western arctic ( mr. nickerson ) directed a similar question to me yesterday . {sent} mr. nystrom : i was not here . {sent} mr. de corneille : i think the hon. member 's question is a justified one . {sent} i think that can be said by anyone of any faith and should be continually emphasized . {sent} the hon. member is right in indicating that it is not enough to say : `` do as i say but not as i do '' . {sent} if the hon. member is suggesting that there is hypocrisy involved in every group , i agree with him . {sent} we in the liberal party are proud of the fact that our president is the hon. iona campagnolo . {sent} however , when we look at the number of members of parliament sitting in the house , we are unhappy that we do not have more women who are members of parliament . {sent} everyone has a responsibility . {sent} in terms of our own home life , we should re-examine our attitudes toward women , native people , and the handicapped . {sent} certainly it is a responsibility of the church . {sent} i believe the hon. member 's question concerned the anglican church . {sent} the anglican church should forthwith approve the consecration of women as bishops . {sent} it has decided to ordain women as priests , which is a logical step . {sent} the government should move as quickly as possible to make meaningful the policy of eliminating systemic discrimination as the bill is supposed to do . {sent} however , i fear -- and i am sure the hon. member would agree -- that this is not happening . {sent} mr. nystrom : mr. speaker , i was glad to hear the hon. member say what he said , and i should like to ask him a question which might be quite radical for this institution dominated by males . {sent} he mentioned that there were very few women in the house of commons . {sent} all three political parties at the federal level , and certainly at the provincial level in different sections , have parity clauses in their constitutions vis-à-vis gender . {sent} often half the delegates must be female . {sent} for example , half the delegates to national or provincial council meetings must be female . {sent} we have seen that practice internally within our parties . {sent} would it be too radical to suggest that perhaps we should have legislation wherein half the members of the house must be women ? {sent} in other words , there could be dual ridings , approximately 180 such ridings . {sent} each riding would elect two members , one of whom must be a woman . {sent} would the hon. member agree with that proposal ? {sent} after all , all three political parties are moving in that direction internally . {sent} is it too radical a suggestion in terms of this very staid and conservative institution ? {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , it is a proposal which i have heard proferred by other people . {sent} having given thought to the matter , it seems that the principles involved in this piece of legislation would indicate that finally we are dealing with the fact that people must have merit to be given jobs . {sent} i think the same applies to the electorate . {sent} if the electorate deems there are certain people it wants to elect , then whether they are male or female is not the issue . {sent} the issue is the quota . {sent} i think we can discuss this further perhaps privately . {sent} i would like to conclude on this note , mr. speaker . {sent} the need , if you will , for an effort to recruit women is something which is very much in the minds of political parties , at least it should be . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : resuming debate . {sent} is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : the question is as follows : miss macdonald , seconded by mr. hnatyshyn -- {sent} mr. marchi : mr. speaker , i would like to speak . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : very well . {sent} the hon. member for york west ( mr. marchi ) on debate . {sent} mr. blaikie : the question has been put . {sent} an hon. member : you can't . {sent} mr. marchi : is there some problem with members on the government benches ? {sent} does someone want to speak ahead of me ? {sent} mr. deputy speaker : order , please . {sent} the parliamentary secretary to the president of the privy council ( mr. lewis ) . {sent} mr. lewis : mr. speaker , we have no wish to cut off this debate . {sent} this matter has been before the house and committee for some time . {sent} all those who wanted to be here were here ready to debate . {sent} i believe , sir , that you called the question . {sent} if the opposition wishes to filibuster this debate , it may . {sent} i believe that you called the question . {sent} i would like to know whether that was the position of the chair . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) . {sent} mr. gauthier : on the same point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} an hon. member : who was recognized ? {sent} mr. gauthier : indeed , he was given the floor . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : both member are correct . {sent} the parliamentary secretary is correct when he said that the question was called . {sent} the hon. member for ottawa -- vanier ( mr. gauthier ) says that the question was not put . {sent} the question was not put . {sent} therefore , the hon. member has the floor for debate . {sent} mr. sergio marchi ( york west ) : mr. speaker , i am somewhat surprised that government members would have such an objection to listen to further debate . {sent} mr. lewis : you were surprised in the lobby . {sent} mr. marchi : yes , i was in the lobby . {sent} yes , i had an interest and that interest is genuine , and that is why i am on my feet right now . {sent} i would like to participate in this debate once again . {sent} several days ago i said that the debate and the process were frustrating . {sent} we have seen , particularly at committee stage , group after group after group of women , the disabled , native people and people representing the visible minorities . {sent} they came before the committee and stressed the need to improve and strengthen bill c-62 . {sent} we saw participation at second reading once it was known across the country what bill c-62 contained and , more important , what bill c-62 did not contain . {sent} the four target groups , the four community-based action groups , did not come before us simply as a one-time wonder . {sent} very many of these same organizations came before this parliament and this house of commons during the constitutional debate when we were discussing the charter of rights and freedoms . {sent} they came before the abella commission , which set out very courageously and progressively , i might add , a vision for canadians in terms of equal opportunity in the workplace . {sent} in each and every single case they came at great expense , great energy and effort to articulate to their leadership at the federal level , to you and me , mr. speaker . {sent} they told us what it meant for them to be discriminated against either on the basis of sex , handicap or the colour of their skin . {sent} they tried to articulate in a very sensitive and effective manner what it was they needed from this house in terms of legislation and leadership for them to be freed from this type of bondage . {sent} as members of parliament we have dealt and continue to deal in this house with these frustrations . {sent} people continuously seek the advice and assistance of members of parliament to help them find employment . {sent} these are people who have been in the unemployment lines for days , months and , in some cases , years . {sent} somehow having a job fulfils one 's goals and aspirations , keeps families intact and families on the go . {sent} these people are canadians . {sent} they deserve an equal opportunity . {sent} they deserve an equal slice of the canadian pie . {sent} that is not good enough . {sent} look what we have done for the visible minority canadians in this country '' ' . {sent} they do not want to be hoodwinked and , more important , they do not want other canadians to be hoodwinked into believing that the lot of these canadians is being improved , because it is not . {sent} member organizations within these four target groups have said very clearly to parliament that they would rather have no bill than have bill c-62 in its present form . {sent} they are frustrated after having stated their position to the government year after year , through report after report , and seeing no action . {sent} if bill c-62 contained some decency and some movement on their complaints , recommendations , and representations to the committee , they would have been pleased . {sent} they would have accepted that as a first step . {sent} however , there has been no movement . {sent} there has only been talk and rhetoric . {sent} that is why they are displeased . {sent} everyone in the house believes in equal opportunity . {sent} we should not accept a piece of legislation which does not do that which it purports to do . {sent} rather than do that , we should transcend party politics and work hard to deliver a piece of legislation which will do what it is intended to do . {sent} my colleagues and i do not stand in our places to oppose simply for the sake of opposing , and not simply to debate until six o'clock . {sent} we are taking a position of principle . {sent} for years members of these four target groups have been telling the government what they want . {sent} at the eleventh hour we at least wish to take the opportunity to articulate those concerns . {sent} bill c-62 is simply not good enough , and the four target groups do not wish to accept it . {sent} we have done more than simply talk . {sent} through our critic we moved 36 amendments which would have given bill c-62 strength and effectiveness . {sent} we recommended that the committee and the government accept these amendments in order to demonstrate decency and moral integrity . {sent} one would have expected that one , two , or three of those amendments would have been accepted in good parliamentary faith . {sent} however , none of them were accepted . {sent} the amendments which we proposed came from the four target groups . {sent} for whose benefit is this legislation being put forward ? {sent} is it for members of the house or for the viewing audience ? {sent} of course not . {sent} if our purpose is to create equality in the country for the four target groups and those groups are not satisfied with this legislation , why is the government prepared to proceed with it ? {sent} why is the government so anxious to have this legislation passed ? {sent} why has the government censured every member of this party who has spoken on bill c-62 ? {sent} we are not out of order . {sent} we make no apologies for debating this issue in the house . {sent} we do not apologize because we are trying to be the lightning rod between the four target groups and the federal government . {sent} we will not apologize today or tomorrow . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : i regret to interrupt the hon. member . {sent} we will proceed with royal assent after which the hon. member may complete his speech . {sent} royal assent {sent} the royal assent {sent} a message was delivered by the gentleman usher of the black rod as follows : {sent} mr. speaker , the honourable deputy to the governor general desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house in the chamber of the honourable the senate . {sent} accordingly , mr. deputy speaker with the house went up to the senate chamber . {sent} and being returned : {sent} bill c-99 , an act to provide borrowing authority -- chapter no. 19 . {sent} - employment equity {sent} government orders {sent} employment equity act {sent} measure to enact {sent} we thought the government should include an enforcement mechanism in this legislation . {sent} we feel that the human rights commission , as it stands , does not have the resources or mandate to be the enforcement agency . {sent} the commission is a reactive rather than proactive mechanism . {sent} it also operates on a one-to-one basis rather than in the comprehensive fashion in which we will need to operate if we are serious about implementing national legislation . {sent} notwithstanding our differences , we urged the government to ensure at least that this legislation was enforceable . {sent} the government refused , and we ask why . {sent} if the government believes that the human rights commission is the right vehicle , then for goodness' sake let us not skirt around the issue , let us put it clearly in the legislation . {sent} we also recommended that all federal government departments be covered by this legislation . {sent} this was a key point for every single witness who appeared before the committee . {sent} why ? {sent} they looked to ottawa to provide leadership by example . {sent} yet that , too , was refused . {sent} another key recommendation we made on behalf of a number of concerned groups was that this legislation should cover companies with less than 100 employees . {sent} this legislation applies only to companies with more than 100 employees . {sent} we have documentation which shows that if that provision is allowed to stand , then most of the companies doing business with the federal government will not be covered by the legislation . {sent} that is to say , most of the firms who provide goods and services to this government from coast to coast have less than 100 employees . {sent} we made the practical and reasonable suggestion that the number should be dropped from 100 to 25 . {sent} that figure was accepted by , for example , the canadian ethnocultural council when it appeared before the hearings . {sent} in fact , if we stop and think for a moment , we are talking about equality , so why should we base equality on the number of employees a business has ? {sent} basically , there should be none . {sent} if equality is not allowed to prevail within a firm of six employees then we have no equality . {sent} that is why , at least , we had a threshold at 25 employees . {sent} the americans , in their contract compliance record , have firms of employees under 50 who also have to subscribe to their policies . {sent} therefore , if there are those critics who suggest that the americans somehow lag behind our system , then let them speak up now because we are lagging behind the americans on this very essential point . {sent} we should eliminate this hang-up and this charade with putting most of the companies outside the parameters of equality simply based on the number of employees . {sent} that will not go down well with regard to having any respect for the legislation that we have before us . {sent} another recommendation we made was to enforce some kind of penalty for individual companies or crown corporations that somehow would not meet employment equity . {sent} that is difficult because this government has not clearly come up with a grid , a target , a suggested plan for achieving employment equity . {sent} this government simply prefers to say , well , if company a or crown corporation b submitted a report then that is good enough for us . {sent} that simply runs counter to the entire thrust of why bill c-62 is here in the first place . {sent} that , in a nutshell , conceptualizes what is wrong with this legislation . {sent} i notice you are motioning to me in terms of my dwindling time , and so i will simply summarize in the following manner . {sent} it is an inability to appreciate -- and i do not profess to have a monopoly on that appreciation -- what it means to be in those categories . {sent} most of us do not have a disability , most of us are white , and most of us are not native . {sent} therein lies the inability of this parliament and this government to deal with the subject in a proper and effective way . {sent} it is not only a shame for the government . {sent} we have not done this , and i would hope to god that this government can see the shortcoming of its attitude in this legislation . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : are there any questions and comments ? {sent} mr. de corneille : i would like to ask a question of my colleague from york west , who is the official critic for the official opposition in the field of multiculturalism . {sent} he is , as i know , constantly in touch with various cultural groups in this country . {sent} in toronto , as well as in his own riding , he is in constant touch with minority groups , particularly visible minorities . {sent} is it also not true that a very high proportion of people who are in the visible minorities are not employed , especially among youth ? {sent} mr. marchi : i would like to thank my colleague from eglington-lawrence for raising what is a very fundamental question for me as the official critic , and similarly for him as among other things , the critic for the handicapped community . {sent} he has liaised with that community in conjunction with myself and other members of my party . {sent} the visible minorities community and the ethnocultural communities as expressed in this process by the cec , the canadian ethnocultural council , which is the national umbrella group for all ethnocultural organizations in canada , had expressed some degree of enthusiasm and hope for this particular piece of legislation . {sent} they thought that a piece of legislation , such as this bill on employment equity , would tie the various elements together and that they would find it the underpinnings of each of those different studies . {sent} they came to the employment equity table in debate with the high hopes that those recommendations would transcend into legislation . {sent} they did not find it , but they did not go home and they did not give up . {sent} the urban alliance on race relations , which was a leading component of the struggle on behalf of the visible minorities , concluded in the following way : {sent} -- that the focus of the legislation is on data collection rather than hiring and training in a workplace free of discrimination . {sent} the canadian ethnocultural council on the question of visible minorities said that it cannot see how a voluntary approach , which is in bill c-62 , will substantially improve employment opportunities for visible minorities . {sent} mr. de corneille : mr. speaker , i agree with what my colleague has said . {sent} one of our other concerns is that young people constitute a very large and undue proportion of those who are unemployed in our country . {sent} furthermore , among those unemployed youth , a much higher proportion of those who are visible minorities are unable to get work in toronto and every other city in the country . {sent} the percentage of unemployment among visible minority groups is even higher than the level of unemployment among young people . {sent} does this not also impact badly on the youth in this country ? {sent} mr. marchi : mr. speaker , during my speech i said that perhaps the most sensitive problem we deal with when speaking to our constituents is the question of unemployment . {sent} young people who have just graduated from school or university are hungry for their first opportunity in the workplace but are being denied that opportunity . {sent} my colleague , the hon. member for eglinton -- lawrence ( mr. de corneille ) , is correct that the problem is even more acute for the visible minority within the youth element of this country . {sent} they face an awesome , if not almost impossible task , given some of those conditions . {sent} in some parts of halifax , nova scotia , i believe the unemployment rate for young black canadians is upwards of 50 per cent compared to the rate for other individuals in the same bracket . {sent} that should be testimony to the type of legislation we ought to introduce in the parliament . {sent} last year , studies were conducted with the support of the urban alliance on race relations , together with york university . {sent} individuals from visible minorities tested firms and companies and found that employers were not prepared to hire them . {sent} after the two studies were completed , the report showed an alarming attitude among those selected employers . {sent} i am not suggesting for one moment that all canadian employers or all canadians share that attitude , but surely there are some very deep-rooted problems that we simply must eradicate . {sent} if countless studies tell members of parliament that there is a very severe problem to which there are good solutions , why should we accept legislation that does not even come close to solving those problems ? {sent} why should we accept amateurism in place of professionalism ? {sent} why should we accept charades instead of sincerity ? {sent} it is time that we called a spade a spade in this country . {sent} yet , the government is not prepared to do so . {sent} it is a shame . {sent} mr. howard mccurdy ( windsor -- walkerville ) : mr. speaker , when i confess that it is my intention to vote against this bill , i do not suppose that it would be a significant surprise . {sent} this is a mean little bill that will be a source of disappointment to the groups that are supposed to benefit from it . {sent} this bill is a poor reflection of the character of this country , its people , and what they want it to be . {sent} the bill is rather typical of the steps that have so often characterized the approach taken in the past to meet the needs of the minorities . {sent} its very notion is that we dare not go too far too fast . {sent} it was argued in the south that legislating away segregation would surely mean perpetual conflict . {sent} the canadian people understand that . {sent} this country has changed immensely since i was a child . {sent} this bill does not reflect the attitude of canadian people . {sent} it is a poor reflection of the attitudes of our country . {sent} it has been defended in an extremely lukewarm fashion . {sent} retreat is never aggressive and never produces memorable rhetoric . {sent} the organizations who represent women , minorities , the disabled and native people in this country have presented their case over and over again . {sent} their position has been articulated on this side of the house with , i think , dramatic effect . {sent} we have demonstrated that the party in power constitutes a minority holding the viewpoint that we must continue to go slowly . {sent} it is a tragedy that the march to progress has not been continued by the present government . {sent} the marchers have been waylaid , the march has been sabotaged . {sent} what is going to happen today does not represent the culmination of the efforts of so many to secure equality . {sent} it is an interruption . {sent} it will not be a fatal interruption but it is one which will cause only concern and unhappiness with some measure of misery and alienation . {sent} this government will be discredited among a significant portion of the population . {sent} let me remind those hon. members of the population which will be affected by this bill . {sent} they will be remember the government 's weak response . {sent} federal government departments are excluded from this legislation . {sent} it will be remembered that what is not contained in this bill is any reference to equal pay for work of equal value , and it will be noted that there is nothing in this bill to address the issue of contract compliance . {sent} it should state clearly and unambiguously that those who discriminate against minorities , women , native people or the disabled , will not receive government contracts . {sent} it will be noted that this bill does not provide , as it claims to do , mandatory affirmative action or employment equity . {sent} it provides only one requirement subject to any kind of sanction , and that is , that companies report the numbers of designated groups which are employed , how and where they are employed and how much they are paid . {sent} this bill will not address the problem of the deprivation of so many adequate employment opportunities . {sent} for those who would claim that this bill is aimed at achieving equalty let us dispense with that right now . {sent} all this bill refers to is employment . {sent} it will not redress the many wrongs experienced by minorities in education , housing and opportunities for participation in our communities . {sent} what it does in an indirect way is address the tremendous advantages which white males have through their social clubs and contacts at the golf course and elsewhere . {sent} this is something , i think , which bears emphasis . {sent} there is no negation in this bill of the practice of the past , which continues today , of shutting out so many people from opportunities through the `` old boy '' network . {sent} i sit down in grave disappointment and that disappointment is not only my disappointment but the disppontment of hundreds of thousands of persons , indeed , millions , whom the government has failed . {sent} mr. prud'homme : mr. speaker , i simply want to make a couple of remarks . {sent} as a matter of fact , my interpretation of the new standing orders is that a chairman must not only be objective , but also appear to be objective . {sent} so i think i did the work the house asked me to do as an impartial chairman . {sent} i have always said that when i act as chairman i have no political opinion . {sent} that being said , i did not take part in the debate on this bill , a bill i consider extremely important . {sent} i may add that since we are now getting used to a new system , and i am referring to the system of legislative committees , i preferred to abstain from voting on second reading . {sent} i would not even want to say it is a step in the right direction , because it would be more or less taking sides with the government . {sent} nor would i want to say that the bill is a very poor piece of legislation , because i would be siding with the opposition . {sent} i prefer to abstain . {sent} i am not sorry i did . {sent} it was a very interesting experience . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} mr. marchi : mr. speaker , i was very much interested in the hon. member 's participation throughout the entire process . {sent} he just left the chamber . {sent} i hope he will return and listen to my question . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : i am sorry , i will have to interrupt the hon. member for york west ( mr. marchi ) if the hon. member for windsor -- walkerville ( mr. mccurdy ) is not present . {sent} we have decided that . {sent} the hon. member not being present , is the house ready for the question ? {sent} some hon. members : question . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : the question is the following one . {sent} miss macdonald , seconded by mr. hnatyshyn , moves that bill c-62 , an act respecting employment equity , be read the third time and passed . {sent} is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the said motion ? {sent} some hon. members : agreed . {sent} some hon. members : no. {sent} mr. deputy speaker : all those in favour please say yea . {sent} some hon. members : yea . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : all those opposed please say nay . {sent} some hon. members : nay . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : in my opinion the yeas have it . {sent} and more than five members having risen : {sent} mr. deputy speaker : call in the members . {sent} the house divided on the motion ( miss macdonald ) , which was agreed to on the following division : {sent} 33 {sent} mr. deputy speaker : i declare the motion carried . {sent} bill read the third time and passed . {sent} mr. prud'homme : on a point of order , mr. speaker . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : the hon. member for saint-denis ( mr. prud'homme ) on a point of order . {sent} mr. prud'homme : mr. speaker , i must explain why i did not vote . {sent} mr. deputy speaker : it being 6:09 p.m. , this house stands adjourned until tomorrow at 11 a.m. , pursuant to standing order 3(1) . {sent} the house adjourned at 6:09 p.m. {sent}